Billy Graham’s Website Removes Mormonism From Cult List

The Story: Earlier this week, after evangelist Billy Graham endorsed Mitt Romney for president, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA) removed a page from their website that listed Mormonism as a cult.

The Background: According to CNN, a section of BGEA’s website called Billy Graham’s My Answer included the question “What is a cult?”

Answer: “A cult is any group which teaches doctrines or beliefs that deviate from the biblical message of the Christian faith.”

“Some of these groups are Jehovah’s Witnesess, Mormons, the Unification Church, Unitarians, Spritualists, Scientologists, and others,” the site added.

In a statement to CNN, Ken Barun, chief of staff for the association, said:

Our primary focus at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association has always been promoting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We removed the information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign.

Why It Matters: Since 2007, when Mitt Romney first ran for president, many evangelicals have worried that Christians would be expected to temper their criticism of Mormonism since it could be construed as a condemnation of a Mormon politician. Sadly, that concern is proving to be valid. When an organization dedicated to evangelism chooses to self-censor for fear of appearing “political,” then we’ve reached the stage when we need to reevaluate our priorities.

Increasingly, evangelicals are willing to tell people they are sinners—as long as we don’t have to be specific about what sins are separating them from God. Once we begin to name particular sins, we begin to offend particular individuals. For instance, telling Mormons they don’t really know Jesus and that they are worshiping a false conception of God is guaranteed to offend their religious sensibilities. But the same claim is increasingly considered offensive to the political sensitivities of some Christians since it might lead people to think they should not vote for a Mormon. (For the record, I believe Christians can, in good conscience, vote for a Mormon. But I respect the reasons why some evangelicals disagree.)

We should not enjoy offending either non-believers or our fellow Christians. But for anyone committed to telling the truth about God’s wrath and mercy, giving offense is inevitable. Refusing to engage in theological controversies that have become “politicized” is not an option for those who care more about the Kingdom of God than the City of Man.

  • James Lerner

    Not a good move I fear. America has enough problems right now without a Mormon president.

  • Glenn

    I understand what they’re thinking, but couldn’t they leave mormonism in the list but then offer a two-kingdom-like explanation of how one can still vote for a candidate who more closely represents their ‘vslues/viewpoints’ even if their theology is not considered orthodox?

  • Darren Blair

    As a Mormon?

    Time and again, we Mormons have tried to partner with various mainline Christian groups to perform assorted charitable actions, only to have our hands slapped away by people who would rather the good work go undone than work alongside a Mormon or three.

    I see Mr. Graham’s efforts as an olive branch, and a recognition of the fact that there’s a time and a place to set aside our differences for the sake of the greater good. In this case, he doesn’t want the election to be poisoned by people playing the “religious bigotry” card.

    • Mel

      Truth is truth. It is not bigotry. I do not want you to be lost either.

      • Darren Blair

        I notice that you ignored the part where I said “we keep getting our hands slapped when we try to work on charitable efforts with mainstream Christian groups”.

        Some people are happy to have our help if it means getting things done, but others would rather see suffering continue than work alongside a Mormon.

        Didn’t Jesus condemn that type of hypocrisy, too?

        • Rob

          Darren, first of all let me just apologize because I’m not sure what “getting our hands slapped” means, but it sounds like someone did something to deliberately hurt you.

          We have very different views from each other and I think that’s summed up in what you consider the “greater good,” by which I’m assuming you mean “assorted charitable actions.” As evangelicals we don’t believe that the good works are the greater good, but the relationship with Christ our Lord is a far greater good. We do the works as fruit of that relationship.

          So to be honest, if I had an organization I would not work with you because you share a different gospel, which to me is a far greater issue than good works.

          • Darren Blair

            Here’s an example.

            At one point in time, one of the local Mormon congregations was host to the local chapter of Newborns in Need, a charity that provided hand-made baby blankets and supply baskets to parents of premature infants.

            The woman who ran the chapter was literally told by non-Mormons that they’d never assist with the charity so long as it was being hosted inside a Mormon building.

            In other words, these people were putting “religious differences” above “premature infants”.

            How about that for an example?

            • Rob

              That’s a great example. The issue for me would be, with that blanket are you also sharing your version of the gospel?

              Obviously I want that baby to have a blanket!! But not at the cost of his/her mother’s soul.

            • Darren Blair

              What we *did* was sew together the blankets by hand, and then put them inside plastic tubs that contained infant care products such as socks, shampoo, and soap. The tubs were then shrink-wrapped and delivered to local hospitals.

              No religious messages or anything else.

              Oh, and emphasis on “did”.

              You see, a large part of the reason why she was asking people was because we were short-handed; there were major scheduling issues that limited the number of us Mormons who could get together at any one given time to work on everything, and so we needed all the help we could get.

              Having people turn us down like that just pushed everything over the edge. We finally had to shut down the chapter.

            • Bryant

              I think you are missing Rob’s point. To us, the greater good is God. Partnering with Mormon organizations tend to send the message, even if not intended, that we stand for the same basic message. We think sending that message to mothers of premature babies is far worse than not being able to send them blankets.

    • Casey

      Darren, Mormonism deviates from Biblical Christianity so much there is nothing in common other that words like Jesus, temple, priests, eternal life. Sure we both can be friends and give food to the poor together but Christianity can never endorse the theology of Mormonism. Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon tell us this!

      “I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong…that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

      “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

      • Casey

        All these words have different meanings, Jesus, temples, eternal life. Mormonism reads Mormon teachings into the Bible! The Bible is the authority for the Christian. For the Mormon the Bible is harmonized to LDS teachings. Please read the Bible and take in context and you will see why Mormons are not Christian.

  • EMSoliDeoGloria

    This comes from not thinking clearly.

    I work very closely in political efforts with Mormons. We share many values. So, of course I can disagree with Mormon theology and support a Mormon running for president.

    I don’t have to agree with someone’s faith to recognize their leadership skills or their qualifications for a high office. If I were a small business owner hiring for a managerial position, I wouldn’t exclude anyone, including a Mormon, because of our disagreement on matters of faith, the identity of Jesus, eternal destiny, etc. If someone who is not an orthodox Christian theologically is the best qualified for a position in my (fictional) business, I would hire them. Why should it be any different when we are hiring a President?

    • Jason

      The problem with supporting a mormon politically isn’t overlooking the common values because of theological differences, but the fact that their faith involves world domination through control of every aspect of a member’s life including work, even if you are in politics.

      The BGEA made a mistake by changing their website because it demonstrates a permanent compromise of their core beliefs (even if that is not the case in actuality). They could have achieved the situational support of Romney by simply adding a video or statement about the campaign and not revised previously posted materials.

      • Darren Blair

        [citation needed]

        Mind telling us where you’re getting that “world domination” bit from?

        • Mel

          Probably due to the fact that Mitt Romney answers to your president/prophet and would have to listen to him while in office or he is in danger of being apostate because of the oath he took in the temple ceremony. Since Mitt Romney is a good and faithful Mormon there is no way you can convince me that your so-called prophet doesn’t have that influence over him.
          If he denounced putting that man over his constitutional duties then I might consider voting for him. As it stands now I just see him as a man with a direct line to Satan. Because that is all a person is that claims to speak for God outside of scripture.

          • Darren Blair

            You guys forget that Harry Reid is also Mormon.

            Reid’s so far away from the church on numerous issues that if he was Catholic he’d be denied communion.

            And yet nothing’s happened to him yet.

            • Mel

              So your point is that Reid is not a good Mormon but Romney is? Thank you for making my point. Mormons are not known for their truthfulness when it comes to their church. What is that saying? Milk before the meat?

              I do not want the Mormon “prophet” influencing the United States of America. The fact that Piper, MacArthur, Grahams, ect. Do not get that makes me question their discernment all the way around.

            • Darren Blair

              My point was that if Reid was left alone, that should indicate that Romney will be left alone.

              You see, there have been Mormons in Washington for about 100 years now.

  • Rob

    This is really something tragic because it reveals a heart that chooses political affiliation over God’s truth.

    By not wanting to “politicize” they made a very big political and theological statement. “You’re not a cult if you’re ‘aligned with us politically,’ despite not aligning yourself theologically.”

    We are to love even our enemies, so of course we reach out to Mormons in love, but love is not concealing the truth. We need to pray for Mormons and earnestly hope that they will worship in spirit and truth and hiding the truth does not offer that opportunity.

    • Rob

      For clarification, I don’t mean that the BGEA is out to make that statement deliberately. It’s a statement that comes out from this move.

      I’m thankful for Billy Graham and hope the BGEA continues to be successful, but I do hope they address this.

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  • Mel

    This makes me so sad because I have loved Billy Graham and his family for so long but it is just a sign of things to come.

    We all know that Obama is not a friend to Christian believers and many fear what the future may hold. But what happens to the Gospel under persecution? It goes boldly forward with people risking their very lives. We don’t do that here. We complain about inconvenience being persecution. And we will compromise in order to keep from having to do that.

    Religious organizations are going to be forced into participating in murder in the near future. I predict that few will take the stand of financial devastation when it comes right down to it. They will do what the new law requires and just complain about it a lot for awhile.

    If Romney wins then the truth about who God is and what Jesus did for us on the cross will be watered down more than any liberal theology could ever do.

    It’s a works religion that leads to hell. It blasphemies the very character of God. How can anyone think this is acceptable just because they are active in Boy Scouts and other do good activities? It makes up for nothing. Their book is total blasphemy and souls are being lost because of it.
    As far as I am concerned Mormons are not the enemy. It is the evangelical leaders that are fudging on the truth in order to get what they want politically in this country.

    p.s. Romney is not even a pro-lifer so I am tired of hearing that as an excuse for compromising.

  • Wesley

    “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
    (John 15:18-21 ESV)

  • Anar

    I don’t have too much of a problem with this as long as it is temporally. Campaign seasons mess up all kinds of public communication. If this continues after the election that would be more problematic.

    • Mel

      So a lie of omission is okay as long as it is temporary until you get what you want?

      • Anar

        Aren’t “lies of omission” tricky things to pin down. Not wishing to participate in something that has become politicized seems to come from a different motivation.

        • Mel

          The truth is always the truth, even when it is inconvenient. You are the one that said that you were okay with a lie. A person either tells the truth all the time or they are a liar.

          • Anar

            How many “lies of omission” was Jesus responsible for when he was not saying all the true things he could have said? As you say the truth is the truth, but can everyone all the time reveal all truth? Sometimes it is better to simplify and focus on one specific calling. Billy Graham’s ministry (as I know it) is focused specifically on evangelism. Dealing with a politicized issue can distract from that simple message.

            • mel

              Are you seriously comparing your integrity with Jesus?

              It was not a political issue before. It was the truth before and still is. Everyone knows it to be true that has discernment. The Bible warns of those that go around preying on weak minded people. This is purposely meant to deceive those that are confused. So that they wont question. That seems evil to me.

  • Dean P

    This move was a totally unnecessary compromise and a complete shot in the foot pure and simple.

  • Summer

    I don’t know much about the intent of Billy Graham or the BGEA, but what I do know is that Mr. Graham has shared the gospel to more human beings than anyone in our time. He has also had the privilage to travel, speak and influence the lives for Jesus of many influential and prominant people. For this reason, I caution any heart of judgement toward that decision and maybe consider their actions could now be seen as a mistake. We just don’t know the entire story or intent of the BGEA. It’s not always about one “mistake” but about a lifetime of victories.

    • Mel

      I doubt that a 94 year old man took it down from the website. It says more about the people surrounding him than anything else.

    • Michael

      So the more people you share the gospel with, the more “mistakes” you can make?

      • Mel

        How about the more sins you are guilty of the more that Christ’s blood will cover?

        Or are you saying that Graham has lost his salvation over this?

  • C. Wayne Brooks


  • paul Cummings

    Thank you so much Joe for this article and for the stand that I hear you taking on behalf of TGC…thank you thank you. It saddens me simply to see how much Republicanism has hijacked mainstream evangelicalism. Here in the Bible Belt it’s basically assumed that “Oh you’re a Christian? Don’t you hate that Obama?” That truly saddens and disheartens me…

    • Jinyoung


  • Ricardo

    I love Billy Graham and I think this was more of what is better. A mormon or someone who is targeting the church itself. Basically the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    I love my fellow man and I preach the gospel when I can. I invite mormons in my home and serve them some coffee as we go back and forth about the Jesus. So I can understand where they are coming from. I don’t see them as “evil” or “lost” as more lost. But they tell me I am lost too. I just smile but honestly we should all learn things from mormons. I have yet to see a church that goes door to door. That takes a year out of their lives for missions trips, and that does the events they do for the community.

    • Darren Blair

      Thank you for your kindness and consideration.

    • Mel

      They don’t do it by choice. And they are making them do it younger so that they don’t have a chance to think for themselves.

      • Darren Blair

        Actually, bishops are instructed to determine that the only people who go on missions are going because they want to and not because they’ve been made to.

        Additionally, allowing people to go younger means that they can get their mission knocked out first before coming back to enter college or the military, whereas beforehand people had to take leaves of absence in order to enter the mission field.

        • mel

          I know young Mormons. Its not a choice.

          • Darren Blair

            Mind giving an example, then?

    • Michael

      Uhh, mormons can’t drink coffee!

      • Anar

        shhh… if they don’t know it’s coffee maybe it’s okay.

        • mel

          They can just change the rules again like they did for colas

          • Darren Blair

            Actually, such drinks are generally still discouraged.

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  • Mary Moser

    I would think it well if Gospel ministers would refuse to endorse any candidate. This is not to say that they should not preach against abortion, same-sex marriage. When God’s people are rightly informed, they will be equipped to choose the better candidate.

    God has done wonderful work through the preaching of Billy Graham, but no preacher is allowed to gravely err in doctrine, and so he must always speak against false doctrine.

    • Mel

      Interestingly Greg Laurie has posted the same status three times to vote biblical values with a link to Billy Graham. I guess he doesn’t like how people feel about it because he keeps deleting the status and starting over. It has lessened him in my eyes so much. It makes me sad.

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  • B Parks

    IMHO there was a problem with the title of the section/page on their website in the first place. Their definition of cult was too broad. Technically, they would need to put EVERY other religion under that category. Islam and Judaism would need to go there too.

    What they needed to do was define cult more carefully as separate from say another major world religion. Then be honest about whether Mormonism falls under that category. If it does, so be it. Keep it there. AND advocate for the biblical values as voters choose candidates.

    Does seem a little fishy but I also understand why they did what they did. Not sure if they handled it properly though.

    There’s also lots of criticism on CNN and other sites about Billy Graham buying full page ads to advocate for the candidate who would support biblically defined marriages and be against abortion, etc. Fair enough. If that’s what he thinks is the right way to select a candidate he has a right to do that.

    Why can’t a pastor give instruction to Christians about how to go about voting in a Christian way? He might be wrong in how he does it. That’s another question and should be critiqued. But the basic premise of instructing Christians about how to carry out their duties as citizens of a particular country seems to be clearly implied in Scripture as allowed.


    • Laura Blalock

      Yes, that definition of “cult” is so broad as to render the word worthless. Basically, any person is a Christian, an atheist, or a member of a cult.

      Then you don’t have a word for a group that pulls a person in and estranges himself from his family and friends, controls every aspect of his life, uses techniques designed to degrade his psyche, and so on, so that he loses reality. Jim Jones’s group, for instance. The Heaven’s Gate group that committed mass suicide back when Hale-Bopp was visible. To equate that kind of thing with LDS is ridiculous.

    • Mark G

      They may not know what a Christian is or what a cult is, but they know them when they see them.

  • Cesar

    I think you are missing the point. My problem with this move is not that BGEA made a change on its website to be apolitical. It is exactly the opposite. Don’t be fooled, it was a POLITICAL change. With all the respect for Billy Graham and his fabulous record, they changed that “my truth is the entire truth” definition of a cult IN ORDER TO show support for Romney.
    So, once again, and again, and again, we have Evangelicals choosing to be one-issue voters and ignore ALL the rest (and by that I don’t mean the IRRELEVANT fact that Romney is a Mormon, but the bigger picture of social policies). If you’re not sure about that, take a look at the content of an add that BG is placing this week in newspapers across America:
    “As I approach my 94th birthday, I realize this election could be my last.”

    It continues, “I believe it is vitally important that we cast our ballots for candidates who base their decisions on biblical principles and support the nation of Israel. I urge you to vote for those who protect the sanctity of life and support the biblical definition of marriage between a man and a woman. Vote for biblical values this November 6, and pray with me that America will remain one nation under God.”


  • paul Cummings

    …sometimes I wonder if Christians that seek to be charitable to Mormonism have actually studied it and it’s roots, teachings, history and tenets or are they simply reacting to the nice mormon that they know down the street? It’s pure imagined science fiction, not far from a middle schoolers lit project gone wrong…

    • Darren Blair

      [citation needed]

      You see, a lot of critics of the church *make stuff up* about it in the hopes that people will believe them.

      • paul Cummings

        Darren, God bless you, but you’re lost.

        • Laura Blalock

          Paul, did God appoint you to decide who He will have mercy on?

          • mel

            Laura scripture is clear on that.

        • Darren Blair

          I’m being quite literal.

          A lot of the “Good Christians” who go around trying to “warn” people about us are actually being dishonest.

          At best they’re using outdated arguments (there are people who think we have horns, for crying out loud!), and at worst they’re lying through their teeth (such as one guy I met who swore that he was randomly excommunicated because his bishop wanted to make an example out of him when in reality the guy and his girlfriend had actually been living in sin for some time and blew off a request to explain themselves).

          Hence why I ask what you’ve been reading: I can tell you what is and isn’t actually going on.

          • Paul Cummings

            Snide comments aside… Mormons are lost. Mormon, Hindu, Muslim…having this discussion about the validity of Mormonism in general is akin to having a discussion on the validity of the Easter bunny.

            You’re sincere…yes…but sincerity never equals truth.

            • Darren Blair

              …which is just what I keep having to point out to all the people who want to “save” me.

              You’d be surprised how many mainline Christians I meet who (for example) haven’t even read their Bibles yet but insist upon trying to lecture me on them anyway.

            • paul cummings

              To quote the original article-
              “Increasingly, evangelicals are willing to tell people they are sinners—as long as we don’t have to be specific about what sins are separating them from God. Once we begin to name particular sins, we begin to offend particular individuals. For instance, telling Mormons they don’t really know Jesus and that they are worshiping a false conception of God is guaranteed to offend their religious sensibilities.”

            • Laura Blalock

              Paul, what do you expect to accomplish by telling Darren he’s lost?

              Do you think he’ll immediately say, “Oh, I can’t be a Mormon, then! Let me find an evangelical church to go to right away!”

              How would you react to Darren’s telling you you’re lost – would that in any way increase the likelihood of your embracing his religion, or having any desire to learn more about it, or be around other people who share it?

            • paul Cummings

              Ahem…let’s get out of la la land for a minute.

              A Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist doesn’t think he’s Christian.

              I can speak with them about their faith and through the power of the Holy Spirit seek to share the truth of the Gospel with them.

              A mormon THINKS they already are a Christian, and seeks to be accepted by mainstream Christianity so that they can infiltrate it…which is why they decided to be called LDS instead of Mormons and banned polygamy (Though that’s a funny story about why Romney’s Grandfather was in Mexico…look it up sometime)

              So am I doing a mormon a favor by saying “aw…sure…you’re like us…” or by saying “No, you are not like us and you are lost.”

              There simply is no nice way of saying- false teaching, false church, false prophet, cult.

            • Laura Blalock

              1 – You really see no option besides “aw…sure…you’re like us…” and “No, you are not like us and you are lost.”

              2 – Once again, what do you imagine you are accomplishing?

            • Darren Blair

              1. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” was the name as far back as the 1830s (give or take). “Mormon” was the name given by critics who sought to hide the fact that Jesus’ name is in the name of the church.

              2. The decision to ban polygamy came after 20+ years of legal battles with the federal government. The government was passing increasingly violent and unConstitutional laws aimed at specifically destroying the church, such that by the late 1800s we had full-blown *religious pogroms* in place in America; things were so bad that, for all intents and purposes, “I was bored” was sufficient justification for a federal agent to shoot one of us.

              For obvious reasons, most history books would rather forget that this period existed.

              3. I’m actually fairly popular with a group of Baha’i whom I speak with on occasion, who recognize my right to self-identify as Christian.


              I was polite when I first encountered them, and even skimmed the official Baha’i website to look something up beforehand. They regard me as one of their own, and when I speak on one of my areas of specialty (I’m an MBA with a wide assortment of hobbies) they usually give me the benefit of the doubt.

              Why is it that people who are, by their own admission, not Christians behaving in a more Christ-like fashion than so many actual Christians I meet?

  • Tara

    When people see Mormons and evangelicals working as a collective group, it is my opinion that they will think we have similar ideologies. An individuals we can OF COURSE work together, but as groups- we have to be very careful. We wouldn’t want to skew the truths of the Gospel to someone looking in from the outside.

    It makes me very sad to see Billy Graham’s ministry bow down to the current cultural trends.

    • Darren Blair

      …or maybe the ministry realized that we can do more by cooperating on certain issues than when we’re fighting each other.

    • mel

      You are right Tara. It would be confusing to people that do not understand the differences. Mormonism has been working for a long time to look mainstream. I don’t know why they can’t be like the Amish and just leave us alone but it seems that they want the power that comes with larger numbers.

      • Darren Blair

        Actually, most Mormons are willing to let things be.

        Unfortunately, too many “Good Christians” have made it their life’s work to come after us, often with weapons rather than Bibles.


  • Dougie Fresh

    Mitt Romney has been the greatest positive advertisement that the cult of Mormonism has had since it’s “creation” in the 1820’s. I’ve voted in nearly every election for the last 30 years, however, this is why I’m not voting for either Obama or Romney in this election; and urge my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to do the same. If Romney is elected, I believe that because America is so feared and revered throughout the world, people’s interest in this cult will multiply exponentially both domestically and globally. As a follower of Christ, I believe that this would constitute a tragedy of unparalleled proportions. Hell’s gates will be opened wider than ever before with individuals who’ve been tricked into believing Joseph Smith’s lies. The temporary economic and moral agony the US is currently experiencing are NOTHING in comparison to the eternal agony millions or even billions more will experience if Romney is elected and the positive Mormon advertisement continues.

    • Darren Blair

      Mormons have been in Washington for about 100 years now.

      In fact, church leader Ezra Taft Benson was actually Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower. After organizing a state-wide farming collective in his native Idaho, Benson was made secretary of a lobby group that encouraged farming collectives. From there, he got tapped for the White House.

  • Adam

    My guess is that Graham wouldn’t hedge on abortion or gay marriage in fear of coming off “political.” This is the problem when evangelicalism identifies itself with Republicanism as if it is a component of the Kingdom of God. The church ends up getting completely overrun by politics. In this case, Graham has gone soft on his views of Mormonism for sake of politics, and has ended making a huge statement about where he draws the line on orthodoxy. This is disappointing, but not surprising.

    • Hal

      Well said, Adam. It is also ironic that Graham identified himself as a Democrat when asked, just a few years ago.

  • Linda Dove

    Sounds line another case if itching ears to me…

  • Nicholas Savastano

    Since the begining of the Romney/Ryan campaign I feared stories like this would eventually spring up. I was worried that if Romney does become the next president that it would sanitize the discussion on whether Mormonism is confessionally orthodox Christian. Once again, we have allowed worldly politics to comprimising on “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints”(NASB). I pray that this will force the church to study our creeds and confessions more rigorously along with studying what Mormonism teaches. We should never let partisan politics get in the way with comprimising the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    • Darren Blair

      *waits for all of the people who will become Mormon once all the studying begins*

      You’d be surprised just how often sources critical of the church actually help us *win* converts.

  • MF

    Darren Blair,
    Everything you’re saying is technically right. Mormons are not monsters, any more than Jehovah’s witnesses or Hindus or Bhuddists. But you are not being completely honest either. I was almost engaged to a (very dedicated) Mormon some years ago, and thus learned much of the church and its ways. It’s true that that it was a loving environment, but very little of the true Jesus was discussed or revealed there. And you are not admitting that Mormons look on Christians as “lost” because of our beliefs in the truth of Genesis, the deity of Jesus, and what the Bible says about the end times. Paul warned against the kind of “message” that Smith recieved: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” Gal.1:8. Is this not what happened with Joseph Smith? I will pray for you, because you seem to have a genuine faith, but there is no way to know the true Jesus in Mormonism.
    My concern is this: if Romney is a true Mormon, then why does he try so hard to be associated with those his very faith considers “lost?” He seeks out evangelical partners and calls himself like them, even though according to the Mormon church, they are destined for hell! Doesn’t this prove that he is dishonest?? Or is this an example of him trying to “work” with them without being “associated” with them, as you suggest Christians and Mormons can do? it doesn’t seem to work that way. What we are associated with, we very often become inseperably linked to.

    • Darren Blair

      You gravely misinterpret the way the church sees those of other denominations.

      To begin with, the church’s stance is *not* that everyone else is lost, but that, for a variety of reasons, the other denominations and religions don’t have the fullness of the gospel. We recognize that the average adherent of another faith is legitimately sincere in what they believe and what they feel that they know, and merely wish to share what we feel that we have.

      Furthermore, we do *not* condemn anyone to Hell simply for disagreeing with is. If anything, the church is appalled by the existence of such a mentality in the world. If you seriously believe that we do, I get the feeling that you might have misunderstood what you were being told.

      Additionally, there’s nothing preventing anyone who is Mormon from hanging out with anyone from another belief system. I myself am one of the local “old men” when it comes to doing role-playing games (I’ve been at it since 1990, meaning that I’ve been gaming longer than some of the people I’ve been gaming with have been alive), and so I’ve had people from multiple walks of life sitting around my gaming table over the years.

      • Jennifer Zingalie


        Joseph Smith claims to have heard from an angel of light– The Bible calls the Angel of Light–LUCIFER or better known as Satan.

        The transcripts Smith claimed to find were out of Egypt–those transcripts coming out of Egypt have been proclaimed to be corrupt because it was a land trying to disguise Christianity.

        Furthmore the church fails to have any archeological evidence to base anything Joseph Smith on ANY FACT.

        The funny thing about Christians is our FAITH is NOT BLIND–there is much evidence to PROVE our faith. The Book of Mormon REVERSES what Christ did on the CROSS–

        The BIBLE SAYS the WAGES OF SIN is DEATH (complete seperation from God) BUT the GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL LIFE through JESUS CHRIST our LORD!!! (not works)–

        nothing you do sir will get you to heaven–your good works = dung without Jesus blood to cover your sins)

        Your “FULNESS” requires that I achieve perfection–you can tell me God fills up the parts I can’t do but the TRUTH IS through CHRIST I NEED DO NOTHING BUT BELIEVE

        I live in freedom sir– I carry no burden. Do you?

        • Darren Blair

          1. What about Rev. 14:6, wherein an angel is to come and preach the gospel?

          2. Do you mean the plates, or do you mean the Book of Abraham? The plates were written by a Hebrew people who immigrated to the Americas and left behind as a record. “Reformed Egyptian” was, in essence, a form of shorthand created by merging Hebrew with Egyptian characters.

          3. There’s actually a fair amount of archeological evidence to be had; it’s just that most critics of the church aren’t up on it, and so erroneously tell others that it’s not there. Apologist Jeff Lindsay devotes a fair portion of his site – – to discussing archeological matters, and if that’s not enough then I’ll get you more sources.

          4. Define what you mean by “reverses what Christ did on the Cross”.

          5. The church does *not* practice “salvation by works” as the critics of the church so often proclaim, but rather hold that a person’s actions should be part and parcel of their faith. In fact, it should say something that “practice what you preach” is so often mistaken for “salvation by works”.

          5A. Question: how does “sitting on one’s rump” build God’s kingdom? I’ve known too many mainline Christians who use “I need do nothing but believe” to justify not getting anything done… that is, when they’re not using it to justify overtly sinful actions.

          6. As far as perfection goes, “it’s the journey, not the destination”.

    • paul cummings

      MF- Amen sir

  • JD

    Much ado about nothing. The reporting on this has been atrocious. My understanding is they simply removed an article on cults. It’s not as if they maintain a list of cults and deleted mormonism from it. They simply deleted a list of cults knowing that some people would discriminate against romney because the false religion he adheres to is listed and commonly known (mormonism) and Obama’s is not (Black Liberation theology). While both are equally harmful to the soul, mormonism is not as dangerous to capitalism/freedom as BLT is.

    • mel

      Obama worships himself more than any other theology.

  • Tammie

    Be libertarian this one campaign and help us get out of this awful two party system that will cause evangelical preachers to deny their own mother to get their candidate in office! Romney is a wolf, not even in sheep’s clothing and our under shepherds are following him off a cliff and convincing evangelical Americans to go along for the fall. Billy Graham’s actions follow along with Focus on the Family supporting Sarah Palin leaving her pregnant teenage daughter and special needs baby to run for v.p. I guess following Titus 2 and focusing on your family is for all other women. All these men have their price.

  • Glenn

    I understand some people’s concern about this, I get that. However we should also remember that the website says “some examples of this are . . “. There are other cults that are not mentioned on the list as well, so taking mormonism off the list is not the same as saying the BGEA is softening on mormonism, it’s just not listed as one of the examples.

  • Jennifer Zingalie

    The Bible warns Christians that in the end days people will be swayed by every wind of DOCTRINE. Even the Anti-Christ (satan’s helper) will be so tricky that he will be able to trick the world into believing HE is God and He is good and God is evil.

    So this is no surprise.

    It is a REMINDER to CHRISTIANS we need STAND FAST IN THE WORD OF GOD and STAND UP FOR TRUTH. We hear we need to tolerate, BUT JESUS SAYS to love our enemies AND TO speak the TRUTH in LOVE.


    • Darren Blair

      “There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.” – C. S. Lewis, “The Screwtape Letters”

      Ever figure that some days you’re just fighting shadows?

  • Dane

    This is simply further evidence that many Christians have become too comfortable with Babylon…they have tied their faith to the less offensive, more vague idea of “common good” promoted by the state which they find themselves in. The Kingdom of God stands in stark contrast to the American Empire which we have become too infatuated with.

    Revelation 18:4
    Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

  • rick

    The problem is that many Christians don’t understand the stark differences in LDS theology and Christianity. This action by BGEA only serves to blur those differences. Whatever their motivation, they should have known better.

  • Carmen Castaneda

    Well, Mormonism IS a cult. You should not have removed it from the cult list. I will vote for Romney because he’s the lesser of 2 evils. I don’t really know what Obama is, but IF he is a Christian, he certainly doesn’t show any fruits of a Christian. He talks now about having Israel’s back, but Netanyahu says that he does not! Are you going to remove Islam from the false religions list if we have an Islamist up for president? What you did is WRONG. I hope any person who becomes Christian during the tribulation doesn’t “sidetrack” like the BGEA. Shame on you!

  • reima08

    The problem with Romney and MANY on his campaign staff is that they are unapologetic LIARS, even in the face of facts that clearly dispute their lies. And people like Mike Huckabee, a supposed Baptist Minister have even gone so far as to place an ad suggesting that Obama voters face hellfire. If the right wants to play with religion like that, although the Obama campaign probably wouldnt do this, but perhaps his SuperPac would do the following:

    Place an ad throughout the Deep South and in swing States with a picture of the Holy Bible on one side of the screen and the Book of Mormon (which bills itself as “Another Testament of Jesus Christ” on the other. The ad will state the following:

    Mitt Romney was a preacher and BISHOP in the Mormon Church. Mormonism was founded by Joseph Smith, who claims an angel named Moroni (who is NOT mentioned in the Holy Bible) gave to Smith golden plates containing the foundation of the Mormon religion. Well here is what the King James Holy Bible says about that:

    The Apostle Paul in the Book of Galatians Chapter 1, verses 6-9, states the following:

    “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach ANY other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be ACCURSED. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that he have received, let him be accursed.” (Emphasis added).

    • Darren Blair

      Then who’s supposed to be the angel from Revelation that will come with the Everlasting Gospel?

      I see so many critics of the church whip out Galatians, but almost never see one even try to answer that question.

      • reima08

        To: Darren Blair, your reply is a non-sequitur. The scripture which you reference Rev 14:6 Says: “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,and kindred, and tongue, and people,” What on earth does that have to do with my comments above? In that chapter of Revelations several angels are referenced, NONE are NAMED and certainly no Angel named MORONI is mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible, either old or new testament. Now, I’ve addressed your email. Can you come up with a coherent reply to mine? Please dispute ANY part of what i said in my original comment as false….with some evidence!!! YOU can’t can you? That’s why the incoherent and nonsensical reply

        • Darren Blair

          If “even an angel from Heaven” can be a deceiver sent from Satan, then how are we supposed to believe the angel who is supposed to bring the everlasting gospel?

          The reason why I ask this question is because, as you yourself have demonstrated, critics of the LDS faith are often all-to-willing to use knee-jerk reactions and canned arguments without actually stopping to consider said arguments.

          • reima08

            Darren, that is another diversionary tactic. Deal with the comment. According to the Bible, which Mormons claim to believe in it states that ANYONE who comes along preaching “ANOTHER” gospel is accursed, even if it comes from an ANGEL, which is EXACTLY what Mr. Smith claimed. And as for your question of how are we to believe the angel who will preach the everlasting gospel? We will know because WHAT THAT ANGEL PREACHES WILL AGREE WITH THE WORD OF GOD! That angel of Revelation 14:6 SAYS with a loud voce in Rev 14:7 “Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his jugment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Now again please provide a coherent and specific reply to the original comments, IF YOU CAN.

            • reima08

              Still waiting Darren……..Dont give up so easily. You’ve had a mouth-full of comments throughout this thread. Surely you have a cogent reply to my original comments.

            • Darren Blair

              First and foremost –

              Basic netiquette dictates that a person *not* expect an immediate response to their posts. Getting cranky after a mere 20 minutes is rather rude behavior, and would get you flagged elsewhere for misconduct.

              That being said –

              To begin with, you first need to indicate just what the “Word of God” is and where Mormonism supposedly disagrees with it. This is needful if we’re to actually discuss matters, since it would allow us to compare notes and begin a proper discussion.

              Secondly, you need to establish that what you regard as the “Word of God” actually *is* the Word of God in the first place and not just what your minister told you it is; please show me that you’ve actually done some independent research into things.

              You see, I’ve seen far too many critics of the LDS faith who are painfully unaware of the theology that they profess to believe, the result of their having spent their lives just blindly believing what someone else told them and not asking questions. I’m being literal when I say that I’ve met more than a few “Good Christians” who did not even know such basics as how the Bible was compiled, Markan Priority, or how the KJV came about.

              Now – got anything more than just nay-saying and adherence to a single verse?

  • reima08

    Again Darren, you STILL have not answered my initial comments, even though I have responded coherently and speficially to each of yours. So who’s RUDE? As for following what my minister told me, I actually have more to rely on than just that, as does EVERY true Christian. The Bible states that you need not that ANY man teach you, but the Spirit itself will lead you and guide you into all truth (when you have it that is).Now, when I refer to the Word of God, I’m referring to that Word spoken in the Holy Bible, which according to Mormons, they believe is his word as well. So, if you are a Mormon (and I’m assuming you are) we should be able to agree on the bible as the standard Word of god that we can agree on, or do you disagree? If we agree, then we go back to my original comments and I would AGAIN ask you, what part of my comments concerning Mr. Romney and the Mormon church with respect to the Holy Bible, is inaccurate? And finally, as for what parts of Mormonism disagree with the Holy Bible we could go on all night on those. But, the original comments I made are one example right here and I can’t even get you to respond to that one, CAN I?

    • Darren Blair

      If you want a debate, we need to first establish the ground rules.

      I’ve been talking with people for over a decade now, and in that time I’ve encountered far too many instances in which people were talking *past* each other rather than talking to each other because they weren’t using standard terms and definitions, leading to major misunderstandings that could have been avoided.

      That being said –

      Your argument, in essence, comes down to “you disagree with me, so you must be wrong and therefore condemned”. You purport that the church does not teach the Gospel, and so you are attempting to use that verse from Galatians as a battering ram.

      I, meanwhile, am trying to get you to first establish that your personal interpretation is the correct one. To do that, we need to begin discussing arguments and evidence.

      As it is, on one hand you argue that Moroni is not named in the Bible, then on the other hand admit that the angel in Revelation is not named. If I wanted to, I could try to argue that the lack of names for the angels could easily provide room for Moroni (who, as a Book of Mormon prophet, would obviously be unknown to the people in Israel) to be one of them. That would be a point for me, one that you just handed me by leaving yourself wide open. Instead, I’ll let that one go for the sake of the further discussion.

      Anyway, in about an hour or so I’ll likely be leaving for work; once that happens, I likely won’t be back online for another 6 – 9 hours.

      • reima08

        Darren, I never said to agree with me. Mormonism is in disagreement with the Holy Bible lol!!! I’m not using my words as a “battering ram”. It’s the Word of God that is “battering” you if that’s how you feel. And the lack of angels being named leaves room for one of them to be called MORONI is so incredibly weak as an argument that it doesn’t even deserve a reply. Simply put, you have no credible reply to my original comments, have tried pathetically, unsucessfully to dodge, divert and change the subject and it’s obvious that it hits home with you. I pray the true God, (The one in the Holy Bible) will deal directly with your heart and that you will be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

        • reima08

          …Also Darren, you said that in order to have a proper dialog you need to first ensure that my interpretation of the scripture in Galatians is correct. Forget MY interpretation, which I never proferred. I’m asking what YOURS is?? My whole question to you is, if you disagree with my comments which are basically a verbatim quote from the Holy Bible, what part of the scripture are you in disagreement with as it pertains to the Mormom church? Very simple question, but apparently impossibble for you to answer.

          • Darren Blair

            See my other post.

            You asserted that the church is in disagreement with the Bible, and so it’s now on you to provide evidence to back up your claims.

        • Darren Blair

          Merely repeating assertions does not make them so.

          Where, I ask, do you feel that the church is in disagreement with the Bible?

  • reima08

    You refuse to even attempt to answer my question, while asking and expecting me to continue to answer yours. Let’s see, Three Gods? According to the bible Jesus said I and my father ARE ONE. There is only one God, who manifests himself to mankind as a creator (father), a redeemer (son)and an indwelling spirit (Holy Ghost) but it is ONE GOD, not three. Back to MORONI, not mentioned in ANY book of the 66 books of the Holy Bible, yet is part of the foundation of Mormonism. I could go on all night, but if you can’t deal with my ONE question this conversation is done. If you have a defensible position DEFEND IT.

    • Darren Blair

      Thank you for actually citing an argument rather than an assertion.

      Do you actually have any scriptural citation for the notion that the Godhead is an amorphous blob with multiple personality disorder? Is it something *other* than the Johannine Comma?

      And why should Moroni not being mentioned in the Bible grate at you when such notions as “infant baptism” that are taken for granted by much of mainline Christianity don’t have Biblical roots either?

      • reima08

        Still no answer to my ONE question but still posing meaningless side issues of your own! But again, I’m not afraid of your questions Darren. And I’ve yet to give you anything other than what the Word of God from the King James Bible, which I assume you profess to believe in, says. Again, Jesus himself said I and my father ARE ONE. That’s the new testament, which is in total agreement with the old testament which says the Lord Thy God is ONE LORD. And when you actually have the Holy Spirit it agrees with your spirit that GOD IS ONE. Also, believe me NOTHING of Mormonism “grates” me in ANY way whatsover LOL!!! And you have a rather annoying penchant for going on and on about anecdotal personal experiences or information that have NOTHING to do with the issue at hand. You also make ignorant assumptions without ANY foundation. For instance, what does “infant baptism” have to do with my question to you about Moroni, which YOU HAVE YET TO ADDRESS? I guess you ASSUME that I agree with infant baptism. Actually, I dont. It’s not the proper form of baptism according to the bible. Baptism, as practiced in the bible involves going down into the water and being brought up and symbolizes being dead to sin through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and rising in the newness of life in Christ Jesus. Many churches understand that and some (but not all) that do what you call infant baptism, actually sprinkle water over a baby’s head, but do not call it a baptism, but rather a consecration to God, as is done in the old testament. I have no problem with that at all and think it is a beautiful thing, but it is not baptism in the biblical sense, it’s consecrating the infant (or placing the infant into the hands of God in the prayerful hope that when he/she comes of age they will freely give their lives to God). So, since you have nothing further to offer on my original question, which I posed out of a sincere desire to understand, I will look at the other emails you have apparently sent me, but will probably have this one as my last. You are quite anxious to go on with lenghty responses to issues that you are comfortable with, but otherwise, you flit and dodge, which make you seem flaky to me. Anyway, it was interesting.

        • Darren Blair

          The problem with using the phrase “I and my father are one” as a defense of the 3-in-1 notion is John 17.

          In verses 21 – 23, we have Jesus praying that his disciples will know the *exact* same unity that he knows with the father:

          21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

          22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

          23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

          If we’re to take the 3-in-1 interpretation seriously, then this would mean that Jesus was wanting all of his followers to be merged into a single *literal* body. And no, not in a “body of Christ” way, but in a “Frankenstein’s Monster” way.

  • Tara

    I think Internet arguing is a very difficult place to really understand where a person is coming from. However, while my Mormon friends are wonderful people who I honor and respect, the doctrines they profess do not align with the Bible. These are puzzling questions I’ve always had about Mormonism.

    1. If Moroni was so devout, why is he an angel and not a God, like traditional Mormon practice teaches? If I were Moroni, I’d be a little ticked off.

    2. WHY are there so many revisions to the Book of Mormon? I can’t believe Mormon doctrine actually taught that people became physically WHITE after converting. Later on when Native Americans converted….their skin didn’t change. HAHA Oops better go change that part guys…so since 1981 it says “pure” but the word interprets better into skin tone actually.

    3. The Mormon priesthood is a BIG no-no. First of all- when Christ died he literally ripped the veil that kept us all in need of a priest. Secondly, if you really want to obey the OT priesthood rules, you have to be from the tribe of Levi. I’m sorry but there was no such thing as AKA Joseph Smith couldn’t have known that. And since he wasn’t Jewish- the odds aren’t exactly in his favor.

    4. Joseph Smith was a WEIRD dude. He was known as “Joseph Smith the glass looker” meaning he said by looking into glass objects he could tell where buried treasure was. THATS the kind of guy I want to base my entire faith upon!

    Mormonism is one of the greatest “veils” to ever blind the eyes of so many people searching for Truth. May you all be ever watchful of anyone who tries to steer you away from the true, never changing Gospel.

    • reima08

      Tara, very well stated. I could’nt have said it better. I’ve had “dialog” with Darren Blair for literally hours without answer to the only question I asked. Reminds me of Mitt Romney, total refuseal to answer a direct question. Maybe that’s part of Mormonism too.

    • Darren Blair

      Thank you for actually presenting me with some arguments to discuss.

      1. The process of exaltation does not begin until *after* the Final Judgement takes place. Until then, everyone is temporarily located in either Spirit Paradise (where the repentant thief was to meet with Jesus) or Spirit Prison (which is basically a cosmic remedial school). This link here will take you to chapter 41 of the Gospel Principles manual, which is the Sunday School manual for investigators and new converts:

      2. Actually, most of the “changes” were authorized by Joseph Smith himself back in the 1840s. Smith was dissatisfied with the job done by the original printers, especially since numerous typos and other glitches had entered the text. Smith produced an authorized revision that corrected most of these matters, but his murder and then-tenuous communication between the church in America and the church in England meant that only one edition of the original corrected text was published. Once the church was re-established in Utah efforts were made to re-integrate JS’ edits into the text as his working papers could be located to confirm the proposed alterations.

      2A. Not many people know this, but back in the 1800s “light” was used as a metaphor for purity and “dark” was used as a metaphor for impurity; if you’ve ever read Conrad’s “Heart of Darkness” these two metaphors play a major part of the story. However, the two metaphors have since become so obsolete that the average person no longer understands them, hence why those words were changed.

      2B. I’ve seen anecdotal studies which hold that people can often pick out Mormons from non-Mormons by such factors as skin complexion and the quality of their teeth, the results of adherence to the Word of Wisdom and its prohibitions against certain substances. In this sense, I’m thinking that the bit about skin color changing might not be as literal as some people think.

      3. Believe it or not, I’ve actually seen mainline Christians argue that the priesthood is still needful today and still in operation. This link here goes to a discussion started by “Theo”, a minister and hard-core anti-Mormon, who takes this theological stance –… . So not everyone who is a mainline Christian believes that the priesthood is gone.

      4. Actually, a lot of the purported “primary source documentation” that critics of the church rely upon as proof of this *isn’t*. At one point, the key piece of documentation that most critics relied upon were affidavits collected by Philastus Hurlbut which consisted of signed statements by JS’ neighbors attesting to his purportedly criminal past; thing is, Hurlbut was a violent alcoholic who had a personal grudge against JS, and there is reason to believe that many of the affidavits were either forged or pressed upon illiterates who did not know what they were signing.

      This changed around the 1970s, when Rev. Wesley Walters *stole* a document from a courthouse archive that he claimed was proof of a conviction and a fine. However, about 10 years ago several pro-LDS scholars re-examined the document in strict accordance with the laws of New York in the 1820s, and found that it was not as Walters purported. Rather than being notice of a conviction and fine, the document was actually a bill for a pre-trial hearing. Apologist Jeff Lindsay discusses the matter here – .

      • Tara


        I see you are very familiar with the doctrines of your church, for which I am glad. Many people of faith (evangelicals/Catholics included) simply believe what they are told to. I am not an expert on Mormon faith, so many of your rebuttals fall on ignorant ears. I am not familiar with some of the terms you use.

        The Royal Priesthood article seems fishy. This is probably a small group of people. I have been an evangelical Christian for 13 years and can guarantee no one in my church believes we still need a priest. If Jesus said I am the Great High Priest, I think that covers it. If we read the Bible as a whole, we can see without a DOUBT that grace frees us from this law. In fact, uncertainties about the Trinity also become more clear by reading the Bible in it’s entirety. The Trinity is a difficult thing to prove through direct scripture. However, for whatever my personal experiences are worth, after much study and prayer, I can’t help but see God as a triune being. ‘Let us make man in OUR image…” is a scripture I always refer to for help.

        The infant baptism assertion is something I agree wholeheartedly with. NO WHERE does it say babies have to be baptized! It’s a very unbiblical practice.

        The other questions I had are simply historical misconceptions, lack of research on my part or translation problems it sounds like. I’ll take your word on most of them. Glad to know these things.

        – Tara

        • Darren Blair

          Thank you for being so kind and considerate, unlike other posters here.

          The church maintains two websites:

 is a website for investigators. It has a Q&A section with basic answers, and a live chat section where you can talk with missionaries.

 is the main church website. It has the full canon of scriptures, the current Sunday School manuals, almost all of the hymnal (a few songs have rights issues), and copies of the official church magazines dating back to 1971. All of this is free for anyone who feels like poking around (sadly, whoever designed the site has a bad habit of not doing things intuitively).

          I find that these two sites are generally enough to deal with the vast majority of questions people have about the church, and am curious as to why more people don’t want to take advantage of them.

          • Tara

            I think that at this present time, it is best for those of us who stand for socially conservative values to stand together. While we disagree spiritually, we are all Americans who desire the best for our nation. I’ll definitely refer to these websites if I have any further questions.

            – Tara

            • Darren Blair

              Thank you for your honesty and consideration.

  • reima08

    …Also, one final thing Darren. If I were you I would be very careful about describing God as “an amorphous blob..” etc. God deserves extreme respect. PLEASE read Matthew 12:32, where Jesus himself says:”And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be given him, neither in this world; neither in the world to come.” Jesus also says in Mark 3:29..”But he that blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”. I would be careful about your descriptions of God.

    • reima08

      Darren, in my previous reply I quoted Matthew 12:32, where it states…”it shall not be GIVEN him”, should be “…it shall not be FORGIVEN him”, (emphasis added). May the Lord Bless you.

    • Darren Blair

      The problem with the standard 3 – in – 1 concept is that it, in essence, *requires* God to be as so described in order to function.

      I have yet to see anyone who can mount a serious defense of this outside of saying “It’s a mystery!” or something similar.

  • reima08

    Darren, you obviously don’t understand the God that I assume you believe. It’s not really a “mystery” to me or to many others who have the Holy Spirit. As the Bible states, HIS Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth. AND the Word explicitly states that God is ONE GOD. I tried to explain it to you as best I can in this small space, but I guess it’s fallen on deaf ears, or perhaps I’m unable to explain it in terms you can relate to. If so, that’s my shortcoming. Again, any chance of me getting a response? LOL!!!!! Actually, pal I’ve given up on that LOL!! I understand though, when you dont have a cogent come back its hard to just say, I dont really have an answer, when pride sets in. You see Darren, it would have been perfectly legitimate for you to simply say, “You know what reima08, you’ve made a good point and I don’t really have a specific answer to your comment, but I’ll check into it further”. Or you could have just said, “that’s a good point, I simply don’t have an answer for that one”. There’s nothing wrong with not being able to answer every question somone may come up with. I myself don’t have the answers to everything in the bible or to many other things. I don’t mind saying so, or admitting when I’m wrong. That’s simply being human. But when you dodge, divert and change the subject, you lose credibility and all your other arguments become suspect. Have a good one.

    • Darren Blair

      If I don’t “understand” it then it’s because the mainline Christians who have come before you in trying to “save” me have done such a terrible job of explaining it to me.

      And again – I ask if you have *anything* you can cite to prove your assertion of unity. You’ve shown me one passage that’s problematic in light of another passage, but that’s it.

  • reima08

    Darren, your comments below (which I’ll highlight) display a total ignorance of the meaning in God’s Word AND especially of the spiritual nature of God. Here are your comments, WITH MY RESPONSES TO EACH IN CAPITAL LETTERS: “Author: Darren Blair
    The problem with using the phrase “I and my father are one” as a defense of the 3-in-1 notion is John 17.

    In verses 21 – 23, we have Jesus praying that his disciples will know the *exact* same unity that he knows with the father: DARREN, THAT UNITY IS A SPIRITUAL UNITY, NOT PHYSICAL!!!

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. DARREN, NOTICE JESUS SAYS “…AS THOU FATHER ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE”…SPIRITUALLY, NOT PHYSICALLY.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: DARREN, ONE IN SPIRIT.

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. DARREN, BECAUSE WE SHARE THE SAME SPIRIT, THE HOLY GHOST.

    If we’re to take the 3-in-1 interpretation seriously, then this would mean that Jesus was wanting all of his followers to be merged into a single *literal* body. And no, not in a “body of Christ” way, but in a “Frankenstein’s Monster” way. DARREN, AGAIN TOTAL IGNORANCE OF THE SPIRITUAL NATURE OF GOD. THE BODY OF CHRIST IS COMPOSED OF SPIRIT FILLED BELIEVERS OF JESUS CHRIST. IT IS NOT THE PHYSICAL BODY THAT WILL GO TO HEAVEN. JESUS SAID FLESH AND BLOOD SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. THE FLESH IS NOTHING, IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT IS IMPORTANT. I’M SORRY YOU HAVE SUCH PROBLEMS UNDERSTANDING THE WORD OF GOD.

    • reima08

      ….Also Darren, maybe this will help. The bible clearly states that God is a spirit and they that worship him MUST worship him in spririt and in truth. The physical act of getting on your knees is neither spiritual nor worship. It is when you pray (a spiritual act) and worship God spiritually, with your whole heart and mind and soul that you are following the bible. Also, with respect to the body of christ. Those who have his spirit are his and because they have HIS spirit they have the power to follow his word and be a witness to others about HIM. When you have the Holy Spirit, that is the light of Christ that others see in you that leads them to wonder what you have that they don’t, which opens the door for you to be able to witness of the goodness of Christ so that they too can be filled with his spirit and do the same. The Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised to send back to believers as a comforter, and which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, when those in the upper chamber were filled with the Holy Ghost, is the comforter that Jesus promised would dwell within the believers of him. The comforter (Holy Ghost) testifies of Jesus Christ and leads his believers and guides them into all truth.

      • Darren Blair

        Here’s how the *RSV* renders John 4:24 –

        “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

        I bring this up because the changes in the wording, while subtle in appearance, are critical.

        For example, the RSV deletes the article “a”, turning the opening into a metaphor rather than having it be a definitive statement of being. In other words, the RSV disagrees that God is nothing more than a spirit.

        Don’t feel bad for not knowing about this, though; I’ve even caught a professional anti-Mormon on this one.

    • Darren Blair

      “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee”

      that pretty well says it all, there.

    • Darren Blair

      FYI – “ALLCAPS” on an internet discussion board is viewed as shouting and is thus generally regarded as rudeness.

      If you want to set off someone else’s comments from your own, you’ve always got the old standbys such as quote marks or modern concepts like putting colons in front of each line of text quoted.

  • reima08

    Darren, your reply is a non-sequitor lol. This conversation no longer holds any interest to me. It’s become counter-productive and redundant. I’ve shared all that is needed and I still have gotten no answer to my original comment. I’ll end my participation here. Good day.

    • Darren Blair

      In other words, you didn’t get the answer you wanted to get.


  • reima08

    LOL Darren!!! After answering virtually all of your questions, while you were UNABLE TO RESPOND TO THE ONE SINGLE COMMENT I POSED, such a comment from you is laughable!!!! And you’ve revealed how immature you are, Christian or not!!! I have no further desire to communicate, especially since you are unable to see. Comment all you like but my last one is this. Later LOL!.

    • Darren Blair

      Actually, what happened was thus:

      1. When I asked for clarification so that you were on the same page, you exploded at me as if you’ve never had anyone question you before.

      2. When I noted verses that could counter the few you cited, you started shouting.

      3. When you couldn’t respond to some challenges that I raise, you basically decided to end the discussion.

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