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Kevin DeYoung:

No doubt, some Christians get worked up over the smallest controversies, making a forest fire out of a Yankee Candle.

But there is an opposite danger-and that is to be so calm, so middle-of-the-road, so above-the-fray that you no longer feel the danger of false doctrine.

You always sound analytical, never alarmed.

Always crying for much-neglected conversation, never crying over a much-maligned cross.

There is something worse than hurting feelings, and that is trampling upon human hearts.

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56 thoughts on “When Being Calm and Analytical about False Doctrine Is Wrong”

  1. Carina says:

    That’s right. It’s not the same to say, ‘Well, I don’t agree with this teaching, but it’s ok’ than to say, ‘This is utterly false and misleading.’

    Sometimes we keep our mouths shut for the sake of ‘unity’ and to avoid arguing over things of little importance. I agree that there are things not worth arguing about, but others… If we don’t stand up for truth, somewhere down the road what used to be on the fringe becomes ‘mainstream Christianity’… It’s like the story of the emperor’s new clothes. Many people realize the emperor is naked, but almost nobody is willing to call a spade a spade.

    I’m not the kind of person who likes to go around ‘denouncing’ false teachers. I try to be kind and not judge and condemn people unless I’m really acquainted with the particular teachings that are controversial. There’s always the chance we can take a phrase or two out of context and make a big deal on a slip of the tongue, or sth that was not well explained. The devil is an expert in creating misunderstandings and arguments over nothing.

    I don’t spend a lot of time reading ‘apologetics’ kind of material. It kind of discourages me. I prefer to spend most of my spiritual time meditating on what is good, worthy of esteem… But I do realize that we all need clear warnings, especially new Christians.

    There’s one thing I’m sure of: the Holy Spirit is powerful in leading us. Back in 2004 when I attended a seeker-sensitive, cheap grace church (after being ‘expelled’ from the Roman Catholic Church by the same Holy Spirit), I was led to download and listen to sermons from conservative churches. I opened the Bible and warnings on false teachers confirmed everything I was receiving from the Internet.

    I knew then that we can NEVER take for granted that what a pastor/evangelist/teacher is teaching us is true. It’s our responsibility to study Scriptures very seriously. Especially if we have the desire to teach others.

    1. Glenn says:

      “It’s our responsibility to study Scriptures very seriously.”

      Well Carina, that is ‘apologetics’, as scripture calls us;

      1 Peter 3:15 “…but in your hearts honour Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,…” (ESV)

      Apologetics is being able to defend what we believe.

    2. Well said Carina, esp. that it is our responsibility to search the scriptures “to see if these things are true”.

      1. ken says:

        Hello All.

        Without controversy, scripture tells us we are to study so we can RIGHTLY DIVIDE the scriptures. I have not found many speaking about this type of scripture study.

        2 Corinthians 3:6 tells us that we are to be ministers {and dwellers in} the spirit that GIVES life, and we are not to be dwellers in any scripture that speaks of doing evil or harm or affliction and any other works of death to anyone as being “of God or Christ”.

        This is what the “dividing of the scriptures” is, when done spiritually and in concert with God the Father in us.

        Life GIVES life, and does not and never ever does any work of “ending life” or maiming or hurting others. We read and should know that Moses said clearly, *I* have set before you life AND death, blessing AND cursing, good AND evil. IN the scriptures there is both.

        We are told to CHOOSE LIFE. In other words, to do so we need to NOW disregard any scriptures that speak of affliction and death as being caused by God as being incorrect. After all, it is the spirit of the world that we naturally live in and by that works both good things and bad things by nature and by the things that men do in the world.

        The spirit of man, the spirit of the world, is the “tree” that has the ability to produce BOTH fruits of good and of evil. It is the spirit of man that is the tree that we are not to eat of as an example for what God is like. For if we do, we shall still surely die. In other words, we will not yet be “changed” before or without sleeping. We shall ALL be changed whether we sleep or wake.

        But this does not mean that there is an escape from “judgment”, but it is GOOD judgment that we need to dwell with.

        God bless, Ken

  2. …..and something even worse than trampling human hearts: the trampling of the blood of Christ (Heb 10:29). I’m often surprised at how rapidly people will rush to defend the false teachers who are pushing heresy. Where is the outrage for the One who is really being defamed? After all, it is God whose name is dishonored and blasphemed by false teachers roaming free, speaking their lies and heresies unchecked in a world that is too “tolerant” to mark them out.

    1. Truth Unites... and Divides says:

      “I’m often surprised at how rapidly people will rush to defend the false teachers who are pushing heresy.”

      I used to be surprised too. Not so much anymore.

      In fact, I’m probably not surprised at all anymore.

  3. paula says:

    Kevin – just wondering…

    You said:
    There is something worse than hurting feelings, and that is trampling upon human hearts. I’m not sure how these two things are different, Kevin. This line doesn’t seem like it goes with the rest of your *EXCELLENT* post.

    I agree with Christine — perhaps you should substitute “the blood of christ” for “human hearts”?

    1. Daryl Little says:


      Piper, as the title of the post infers, is talking here about those with no access to the kind of knowledge that God provides via creation and conscience. He’s not talking about knowledge of the gospel.
      The subjects of his post are infants and mentally-handicapped people who have insufficient cognitive abilities to look at creation and say “Who did this?” or to look at your stuff and say “That’s not mine.”

      I think he’s right, but a case could be made against what he says.

  4. qoheleth says:

    Great point.

    And in that light, I recently read a blog posting of John Piper explaining Romans 1:

    “So I ask the question: OK, is the principle being raised there that, if you don’t have access to the knowledge that causes you to be held accountable, therefore you will not be accountable? And I think that’s the case … that is, those [who] don’t have access to the knowledge that they will be called to account for … somehow in some way, God, through Christ, covers these people.”

    Is John Piper a Universalist?

    I understand the context of his point, and it is a difficult topic for sure, but man does that open a big bag of questions.

    Sounds a bit like he is simply trusting the character of a loving God to win out.

    Its as if he were saying, “Look, in the end, Love just somehow, someway Wins”

    Because as clear as John 14 is, it just doesn’t answer “everything” or “every situation” does it?

    Is Piper right or false?

    1. Daryl Little says:


      Piper, as the title of the post infers, is talking here about those with no access to the kind of knowledge that God provides via creation and conscience. He’s not talking about knowledge of the gospel.
      The subjects of his post are infants and mentally-handicapped people who have insufficient cognitive abilities to look at creation and say “Who did this?” or to look at your stuff and say “That’s not mine.”

      I think he’s right, but a case could be made against what he says.

  5. Carina says:

    And one more thing… One false teaching that really makes me mad goes sth like this: ‘Theology is not really important. Teaching doctrine is “religious”, and religion is bad.’

    I wouldn’t be SAVED apart of the preaching and teaching of sound doctrine. True, doctrine per se did not save me. But if noone, thru some sermon, blog, face-to-face conversation or whatever, had taken the trouble to explain to me that I was lost (and how REALLY lost I was), I would have thought I was on the way to Heaven when I clearly wasn’t. My thought before I really surrendered was, ‘I’m not good enough to make it to Heaven, but not so bad as to deserve hell. So probably I’ll spend a couple of centuries in “purgatory” to clean up my act.’

    So, the clear exposition of God’s eternal Law didn’t save me, but showed me I needed a Savior. God’s grace thru sound doctrine showed me in the state of condemnation where I was and then led me to the Savior.

    I do not believe salvation can happen any other way. You cannot be found unless the Lord enables you to see you are lost. And that cannot happen apart from sound doctrine.

  6. Indeed, in this postmodern generation many have lost all their zeal for truth. However, let’s be careful not to make a false dichotomy. One can be firm and ardent for the truth yet express it in a calm and analytic manner. Many Americans were raised into Christian homes and spoon-fed orthodox beliefs, but no one has ever told them the reasons for those beliefs and where they are grounded. This makes people want to give unorthodox beliefs a fair shot, since they don’t even know why they hold the orthodox beliefs anyway.

    In talking with such people, it will be more productive to explain calmly and analytically why the orthodox belief is indeed correct (if that’s the case) instead of relying on a zealous, dogmatic insistence on the truth that smells too much like anti-intellectualism.

    Zeal is good, but we need to be careful and loving.

    1. Brent Swanson says:

      Amen. Well said.

      I think Tim Keller is an excellent example of a cool headed, winsome, yet doctrinally sound apologist. We need more of people like him around.

  7. Luther says:

    We should be alarmed when the Gospel of our Lord is trampled underfoot or made into another gospel. Those who knowingly do such are to be anathemized. We all within this Body can disagree on the peripherals but some things are worth getting upset about

  8. Carina says:

    I’ve been listening to Piper’s sermons for a long time, and have three books from him. I’m not acquainted with every single teaching from him, but from what I know I can say a definite NO. He’s not a Universalist. Not at all. He preaches a lot about hell, and the final, everlasting condemnation of unbelievers.

    I think here Piper refers to what has been called the “age of accountability”. Many mainstream teachers have believed some version of this teaching, and IMHO, it’s biblical.

    Infants/children by definition are immature. Even their brains are not fully developed. So they are not accountable for sin in the same sense as grown-ups are. I don’t know if there is a certain age each child/teen is already accountable to God. Maybe it depends on the child.

    1. kristin says:

      Beyond the fact the idea of an “age of accountability” isn’t even *hinted* at anywhere in Scripture, it doesn’t make any sense within the context of Reformed theology, according to which we are all BORN depraved (due to original sin, I guess), and therefore unworthy and unable to have any kind of relationship with God. It doesn’t matter whether or not the infant can grasp the concept of his depravity or not; depravity is depravity and therefore God can’t make an exception. The rule is the rule.

      For the record, I’m not reformed, though I have a healthy respect for the tradition and have and I like some reformed teachers, including Piper (though I vehemently disagree with his dismissal of Rob Bell, as well as a lot of other things,obviously). I don’t believe that infants that die will burn in Hell. I’m just saying that if you a Reformed, it is only logical (and Calvinists are HUGE on logic!!) that babies/mentally-handicapped people are nevertheless subject to condemnation.

  9. JOE says:


    1. ken says:


      The real interpreter of all scripture is the spirit {prejudices, self “right” predisposed judgments, desires, and emotions} of the one that is reading the words at any time. That is why there is often disagreement over what some words say or mean in scripture.

      We see Republicans and Democrats arguing over what some persons speech means or said. They can get angry with one another over their own ideas of what they WANT the words said by the elected official to mean. If a democratic president gives a speech, the democratic side says it is all good and what it means is such and such.

      But the Republicans can and often will say that it is bad or ill informed or wrong “doctrine” {policy}. Their own party and political AND religious prejudices often are the root of these arguments over “doctrine\policy”. This is very very human, and so is EVERY heated argument about “biblical” doctrine that goes beyond well mannered edifying discussion. We can discuss in a peaceful and well mannered way, but if there is anger or angry “straightening out” someone to OUR way of “seeing the scripture verses”, then ADAM the natural man is doing it. Pure and simple.

      When Jesus said something, and the people argued with him or refuted what he said, HE LEFT. He did not argue. This is a disciples Walk where they let their own natural bent about answering an accusation or a dispute “die on the spiritual cross” we are all supposed to have folded up in our back pocket.

      When Jesus was asked what would happen to another disciple, the disciple who asked him that question was told, what is that to “YOU”, YOU follow me. In other words, all the answers we want to know are going to be found along the way as WE ALL walk our OWN road to Emmaus.

      On that road of following Jesus in our own personal life without fanfare or blowing a trumpet before us, we are taught By GOD within. He shows us all things in scripture that pertain to Him and how they are fulfilled by HIS Spirit as THE way, THE truth, and THE LIFE.

      First we see him as a person outside of our selves, but then he begins to disappear from our physical eyesight ideas of things, and we find he is IN US and is rising in us to destroy in love, all the enemies of “us”, his OWN HOUSE. Thine enemies shall be those of thine own house. It is our own prejudices, self right well meant but incorrect ideas, based upon the spirit of the world, that are our enemies. Good and evil is the way of the world, as both exist here in the same person. God is ONLY THE GOOD. If we follow “that spirit” we will find our beloved as the song of Solomon calls him. We will FIND OUR LIFE.

      But if we do not follow that type of road, we are trying to save our own life, our own ideas, beliefs, doctrines, teachings, judgments of right and wrong, and so on. We will lose that life if we try to keep it, and we will spiritually be freed {lose} from that natural natured life IF we follow Him and find his life as our life.

      Then we can speak from experience, the experience of Christ in us as who we are becoming.

      Jesus said, if we do not pick up our own spiritual cross and follow Him, we can not be His disciple. He simply means, if we do not take His course of class, we can not be taught by Him, we can not be HIS STUDENT.

      We are beseeched to wait and let God make us ABLE to do a good work properly, before we run out and tell everything we know which of course scripture tells us will be incorrect before that time.

      What am I saying. The scripture tells us clearly that the tares and the wheat will always, always, remain together in EACH PERSON {where the kingdom of God is to be, UNTIL the very last time or revelation of Christ for EACH PERSON. Not all will see in maturity at the same time, but in one spiritual day all will see the very same Sun\Son.

      Again, I read, we are to put off ALL anger and strife and envy, and so on, not just “some of it”.

      If love dwells eternally within us, which is God’s unfailing purpose for us all, then hate, anger, greed, envy, intolerance of others with lesser understanding, and so on, will not be able to exist {live} IN US any more. The temple we are will have been cleansed BY CHRIST as he shows us internally, to take these kind of unloving things “hence” and we are not to make our house a house of merchandise.

      I also read the student of the Lord is to be peaceable with all men, no striker, and APT or able to “teach”. If one is not teachable at the moment, leave them alone because they as being the “dead” in Christ or in the world, are going to have to bury their own dead things in due time. YOU endeavour to get to the end of the road and now leave the others to Christ.

      No one can do anything in making one believe, unless they are participating in what God is doing in another. It is GOD that gives repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth and if we think we do it we are still sincere but also sincerely incorrect.

      We are in the day when we need not that any man teach us because He that teaches all things, the spirit of truth, is fully here today. God has come “down” and we are not in the same “language” because of it. We each are our own problem. Knowing this is a great advantage for us, and is not a condemnation of anyone.

      God Bless in the love of Christ.

    2. ken says:

      Hello Joe.

      In regard to what is meant. I believe one of the things meant is that Kristen is saying that it is only logical, if one is logically based, that if one believes that if one is a Christian and believes in accountability and personal verbal confession in order to be saved, then people who are unable to comprehend accountability or understanding such as babies who die as babies or children, and mentally impaired people, are not able to be saved.

      Thus they “must” logically, according to logical type natural minded belief, go to hell forever because they did not personally accept Christ at their time in the world.

      IF one believes that one must be a verbally confessing “christian” and make a choice within themselves to choose God via Christ, then those unable to do so because of immaturity or infirmity MUST ALSO be damned to what they believe hell is.

      Jesus said of course, those who do not know what they are doing are forgiven even though they did not ask for it. Ie..forgive them father, for they DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. This is still true of the unchanging Christ.

      BUT…. to whom much is given much is also expected\asked. It is those who believe they know what is what that are going to be deemed accountable according to what and how they believe what they do believe.

      But God’s purpose is also to bring all to the ability to be able to comprehend and “agree” with him within themselves. This will be done at the last time… which is now upon us as dawn.

      You recall those who were called to work in the vineyard and were offered a penny. Those who did not work as long or as much were still given the VERY SAME PENNY, and they got it first. This is a must for those who will be matured in Christ first. The LAST must be the first to appear in maturity in the earth, which is the hope all creation should have, as Romans 8 says.

      The truth is, God must “judge” all, even those who have died in the world, because His judgment, residing in the judged person, is what salvation to maturity is.

      In Christ, ken

  10. You had me till your last sentence, which in context of what you have written makes no sense. Can you explain? Thank you!

  11. Daryl Little says:

    My reading of the last sentence would be this:

    “There is something worse than hurting feelings, and that is trampling upon human hearts which is exactly what these false teachers are doing to the church.”

    It’s true that they trample on the blood of Christ, but it’s also true that, as pastors, these false teachers are trampling on the hearts of the people they are leading.

  12. Kevin DeYoung says:

    I think the last line makes sense if you read the whole post (maybe you did already). I quote Machen who was making the point that false doctrine isn’t just an intellectual mistake. It hurts people. And it hurts the hearts of the faithful to see the cross misrepresented. Hope that helps.

  13. Daniel says:

    This post summarizes one of my biggest struggles in this whole current controversy. I have quite a few friends that dismiss the entire debate, which I feel is needed, under the guise that we should just sift out the good from the bad. Under this premise they never seem to “feel” the danger of false doctrine, which allows them to say in a never ending state of conversation.

    1. ken says:

      Jesus said *IF* we as disciples continue in HIS word, {not Moses words and not the prophets words}, we will know the truth, and that truth will set us free {from man?, from natural minded physicalized teaching? from needing any man to teach us?}. He who the son sets free is free indeed.

      We are to become THE Son that is free.

      God bless, ken

  14. Kim says:

    I know it’s not popular but discerning the heresy in Rob Bell’s teaching is worth while.

    1. ken says:

      Hello All.

      Kim, this is not about you or anyone else personally, I am just using your message as a method of replying. The idea of what is right and wrong is in the “eye” of the beholder. Take for instance someone who thinks only white people are able to be saved, and yet truly believe they are a biblically based “christian”. There are many more examples I could use but I know we can see what I mean over all from this one example.

      Scripture tells us that we are to watch and keep OUR OWN garments, unless we be naked and “some one else” sees OUR shame or nakedness. This is in Revelation 16:15 that speaks about WHEN Christ comes “as a thief”.

      So it is with what we may think heresy in others is. We just may be naked and now know it. In reference to being naked, I speak about the fact we are to be found clothed with Christ. We are to have HIS life and thus his way, truth, and life IN US as our own way truth and life. We first must see our own well meant, sincere, and faithful errors FIRST, before we will allow them to be moved out of our faith and understanding.

      This method is what is called the “revealing” of the man or nature of sin that is in each one of us as our immaturity, in our own “temple”. We have to see the error in our ways and beliefs BEFORE we will move on to more and better things. We do not move if we do not think they are better. We usually do not move to better and more mature understanding because we just do not understand the whole scope of things at that time.

      I am sorry that the general teaching in the churches is that only pastors etc. can teach. They err greatly, but also are sincere in thinking they know more than another. That is why they believe they should teach and others should sit and listen without discussion, orderly discussion with Christ present as he said he would be where two or three are gathered “Together”.

      Together does not simply mean many people congregating in one physical location.

      Together also means in “one spirit” or attitude.

      Jesus Christ is an “attitude” we are to be and have toward all things, but understanding what this attitude is and why is accomplished only by our growth toward maturity or “harvest time”.

      It is still true, ONLY *THE* son knows the father, and we have to be drawn to becoming the son by the one father God, and as we are “raised” spiritually within by God the Holy Spirit, we each become THE son that knows the father. No one can father another person except the father they are fathered by do it. This is true even in the natural world.

      Thanks for your care in, for, and about Christ and your love.

      God bless in the love of Christ.

  15. JOE says:

    “Some of us get the idea, I think, because of the theology we’ve been taught that holiness and righteousness is not really something I possess, it’s something that’s imputed to me, and my holiness and righteousness is a positional thing, not an actual thing. If you haven’t sat in some systematic theology courses, you may not have understood what I just said. As I study the scriptures, I do recognize the importance of distinguishing between my holiness and His holiness, but I simply do not see what so many seem to see, that the only way I can be holy is this positional imputation that is sort of a foreign righteousness.” Then it basically goes on to talk about how people think they can be Christians without being Christ-like. They think they can follow Jesus as Savior but yet not follow Him as Lord.

    1. Carina says:

      The extract is confusing to say the least. And I totally disagree that there is ANY way we can actually be holy without being regenerated first.
      I think the speaker is mixing justification with sanctification. They are not the same! Justification is a legal declaration that we are righteous, made by God, without any inherent righteousness on our part. That is, we’re declared just solely on the basis of Jesus’ perfect life and atoning death. AFTER that has been secured, the process of sanctification starts.
      In a sense, the Scriptures declare true believers “holy”. Paul writes his letters to the faithful and holy. If you see the actual content of those letters, you can see these “holy” people were far from perfect.
      I believe regeneration includes true faith and repentance, so there is a very real turning from sin and towards Jesus at the moment of conversion. And faith and repentance are ongoing, that is, you continue to lean on Christ as your only hope and turn away from sin for the rest of this life. Otherwise, your “conversion” experience was like that of many, who say a prayer, cry a few tears and go back to the world without a second thought. That is NOT salvation, if you ask me.
      If my interpretation of the Bible is correct(and I read the Bible and basically understand the same as Luther, Calvin, and many traditional scholars), you cannot accept Jesus as Savior and reject Him as Lord. Either you take the whole Jesus or you don’t have Him at all! Accepting Him as Savior is not merely taking a free gift to have a way out of hell. It means you understand (even slightly) that sin is hideous, bad for you and offensive in the eyes of a holy, holy, holy God who is merciful and just. If you still LOVE your sin more than you love Jesus, you’re still in your trespasses and sins and under the wrath of God.
      No matter how many times you said the “sinner’s prayer”, were baptized, tried to clean up your act with some sacrifice.
      If you don’t love the Lord, you’re anathema.

  16. Bob Myers says:

    Kevin DeYoung also wrote, “in the pulpit clarity if king”. We need to be painstakingly clear about issues that have high stakes, and we need to call our people to commit themselves not only intellectually, but to commit to being willing to contend for issues of the highest order.

    The sad reality is, Rob Bell should lose a lot of following for his lack of faithfulness to clear Christian doctrine. But it may be that he will actually gain adulation and followers because they admire ambiguous insinuations that go against authoritative scripture, and they want accommodation to sentimental, dumbed down, versions of God.

    1. ken says:


      Yes, even Paul said he had not yet attained in his life to the power or ability of the Christ’s resurrection. It is Christ’s resurrection in paul that paul was looking to attain to, or obtain.

      IT is certain he did not believe it could not be attained, after all, God will not deny us any GOOD THING if we ask and have faith for it, scripture says. He loves us the same as he loves Himself, and does to us what He would like us to do to him if the situation was reversed. These are character staples of the divine nature.

      If we were to be short of the glory that God is for all of our eternal existence, then we would always be sinners, per se. I mean, what sin is described as in scripture is a condition where oneis “short” of the glory of God.

      We can say that every human baby is short of the glory of a human adult. But we know the purpose of a baby is to be raised up to the attainment of maturity or “adulthood”.

      The crucificion Paul speaks of is the death of immaturity that is caused by the establishing of God’s maturity in us, one by one.

      God bless, ken

  17. donsands says:

    “You always sound analytical, never alarmed.”

    There are tons of Christians like this. I have shared that Philips, Craig, & Dean are false-disciples in the Body of Christ, and more Christians than not simply smile and shake their heads. They seem to think because they are very popular on the CCM scene, that we don’t need to question them, and in fact, because you question them, you are one of those heretic hunters.

    I suppose I do get a little to fired up, but I’d rather be fired up then calm about so-called brothers who teach God is not a Triune God.
    Have a great weekend and Lord’s day, in the grace and peace of our Father in Heaven, and our Savior and God, Jesus Christ.

  18. Susan says:

    So very true! Thanks for posting this.

  19. Rick Supplee says:

    Indeed, way too many people it seems stay middle of the road regarding any pursuit of God. So church remains boring and powerless. Way better to wax passionate about what Jesus can do among us and maybe open the door to his showing.

    1. ken says:


      Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
      Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
      Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
      Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
      Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
      Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
      Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
      Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

      Love in Christ, ken

  20. donsands says:

    “I am sorry that the general teaching in the churches is that only pastors etc. can teach. They err greatly,” -ken

    Your teaching about teaching is in error.

    Paul said: “And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.”

    The Lord Jesus Christ gives pastor-teachers to His people.

    And Peter says: “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.”

    1. ken says:

      Hello Donsands.

      Thank you very much for your reply. Yes, I should have explained what I was saying a bit further I guess. To be under pastors, preachers, prophets, and so on is to be under the law, is it not?

      The whole idea of being free from the law is to have Christ in us. IT says as you quoted, that we are under outside teachers and so on UNTIL, and only UNTIL we begin to be taught by Christ within.

      For some brevity to keep this short as possible for now, I will not quote the scriptures here, but if one wants them I will bring the actual scriptures here in quotes.

      Galatians also tells us that the law is a school teacher unto or UNTIL Christ. The law itself has actually been made as if IT was Christ also, because of our natural manner of being under the law per se when we are “children”. When we become a man {Christ Jesus} we are able to begin to put away childish things.

      What I should say is that the church does not understand that just like Moses’ law was for Israel, the pastors and teachers and so on are for Christians, temporary. The disciples of Jesus Christ in the bible {Paul, Peter, etc.} were NOT TAUGHT BY people other than Christ.

      Paul said that Christ was revealed to him from within him, Paul. In that teaching or time of learning, he was not taught by or spoken to by flesh and blood. So it is to be with us.

      The church as a worldly physically represented organization must come to a realization some time, that they are to be able to teach people what Christ will be saying and what he will not be saying to them, in them, and then let them go to be taught by Christ in them, alone.

      If one does not believe some important and plainly spoken things of what Jesus said, they will be mistaken about what He means when he speaks or shows them to us IN US. Jesus told his disciples who were to be ministers that they were to teach what HE taught and told them.

      He did not tell them to teach what Moses and the prophets said, did he?

      Why would that be so, unless his word is more pure and correct than any other word or explanation of well meaning faithful men who are NOT THE SON.

      No pastor will ever be able to teach anyone about spiritual things or emotional things for they are all personally and experiencially relevant. No one can discern what another means unless they are exactly like the one doing the speaking. That is the ONLY time there will never be any mistaken assumptive understanding in the hearer.

      As Jesus said, the tares will always be “in his kingdom”, whose kingdom we are, UNTIL the harvest time. It is at the harvest time he comes and REMOVES out of His kingdom, who we are to be, all, yes ALL things that offend and make a lie. We are in that day now.

      No pastor will tell you that you can do something that they are not doing or think they can not do. Therefore over time pastors and outside teachers are all limited and teach only who and what they are like themselves.

      If they do not know everything about God and Christ, how can they even speak words that try to identify and explain WHO God is and what Christ is like. ONLY GOD CAN TEACH ABOUT GOD. That is all I am saying and when we come to realize that, in faith that works by love, we begin to leave “man”. As 1 Corinthians 2 says, the natural man does not and can not discern the spiritual man.

      The spiritual man is only and always Jesus Christ.

      I read, as you have I am sure, that we have an unction from THE HOLY ONE, and need not that ANY MAN teach us. Is this true, or not? Jesus also said, if any one hears MY WORDS and does not do THEM, he is building his house on the sand.

      Jesus tells us these things for our benefit, and not as a threat. When they are seen as a threat instead of being seen as a help to us and for us, they are misunderstood by us and we “see” Christ wrongly in our own spirit. This is the source of all error, the “man of” sin or immaturity that is IN US as the temmple of God.

      Our own worldly nature is the nature or “man” of sin that resides in us all and causes us all to be mistaken about what Christ and God is really like at times.

      Thanks for listening and for sharing your present belief.

      God bless, ken

  21. donsands says:

    Ken, I hate to say it, but you are full of confusion. The Bible is the Word of God, which is the truth. God has given teachers and pastors to feed His sheep with this truth. And so we also learn to feed ourselves as well. It’s a very simple teaching of Holy Scripture my friend.

    I pray you will see this truth for yourself.

    1. ken says:

      Hello Donsands.

      Thank you for sharing your very obvious kind and caring concerns. This can become a bit like a serve and volley tennis match, can’t it?

      I agree that the scriptures are for man. But like Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3, speaking to Christians, there is a spiritual understanding of things and there is a natural minded world experiencial view of God and the scriptures as well. In a word, we all dwell in the “old man” understanding of God at first. This is very natural and is not meant in a condemning manner toward anyone or any faith.

      We would never condemn a person in the world for having been a baby once. This is the process of how a human grows up in the world and there is a parallel spiritual process for mankind in the world as well, that is a spiritual inner growth process.

      Paul said of Christians, they could not be spoken to in a spiritual manner because they walked, spoke, and acted like all other people in the world, even though they were Christian according to Paul.

      They had envy and strife among themselves and with the world. That is why they were like all others, Paul said.

      That is a pretty good picture of most if not all of the people in Christianity all through history. Looking at the history of Christianity without accusation, but factual, we can see their has been envy and strife among avowed Christians. We have warred and killed and plotted and thought evil toward other Christians and others, we have poisoned and manipulated kings and others, and we have hated and tortured our fellow man.

      If we can look at ourselves and our faith through history, we can see easily that we have dwelt for centuries in a fallen away condition. I mean, fallen away or distanced ourselves through history from what Jesus taught as being what “his disciples” were to do if they followed him. Man has still been dying. Simply put, that means we are not and have not yet experienced “the change” spoken of in 1 Cor. 15. We have all continued to “sleep”, both physically and spiritually.

      The teachings that have come to us through history have come through this fallen away spiritual condition and because they are in line with what happens in the world, we consider them to be correct or true. Many are not. What Israel believed was from the spirit of man, as were the prophets and so on.

      What I mean is that what they heard from God was “translated” or understood by them from their own likeness, their own “spirit”.

      I would like to ask you if you still believe today that the floods, the hurricanes, the earthquakes, and so on are a direct and orchestrated work and purpose of God “against” mankind for being “bad”. I mean, do you believe God causes these things against certain people and countries, etc. That is a worldly thinking and is part of the “serpent” or spirit we are familiar with in the world whether we believe God or not. A familiar spirit.

      God is not in control here yet. When scripture tells us that it is ALLOWED {let} to man to have dominion, we also read that the first dominion of and through man is NATURAL, which is not spiritual.

      Why was there a necessity for another witness, the witness of THE son of God, if the scripture and the prophets and Moses were enough? When the woman taken in adultery was accused by men before Jesus, he did not cause Moses’ law about stoning her to be fulfilled. HE did not agree with the words of Moses either in his actions or in his words. He did not accuse Moses, but he caused the accusers to remove themselves. {forgive all men etc.}

      Jesus said we had heard it said, an eye for an eye, etc. But He said, *I* say unto you\us, if we do that we are not resisting evil. Turn the other cheek.

      We know that eye for eye is a natural response to pretty well everything bad that is done to us in the world. It is the evil that rises up IN US as our own motivation or desire to do evil to another person who has hurt us that Jesus is speaking about as what we are to resist.

      I have heard men say we are not to resist evil being done to us, but that is not correct. Our spiritual enemies are the evil that is with us in our own members, they are the ones of our own house that are our enemies. Simply put, they are what cause us to continue to die because of being short of what Christ Jesus is like and was like in the world even during the time of the cross.

      The prophets, Moses, and all others did not teach these things Jesus taught as to what HE SAW and KNEW of the Father.

      This is quite long already and I will close here and write another short one about Elijah and Elisha as being fulfilled by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ who followed or came after the witness of John.

      John himself said that he was not “the light that Jesus is”, and he said he was not able to loose his shoes latchet. He also said “I knew him not”. This is the conditon of Moses and all the prophets and witnesses of Israel, including the letter of the now to be “old” tetament because it is of men, not of God.

      Yes, God worked with men, but they were still men and walked like men, acted like men, spoke and thought like men, and thought God was like they were in spirit. They believed God does both good and evil, like man does.

      God bless, in the love of Christ,

      1. ken says:

        Continued reply re natural vs spiritual understanding. This is also quite long and I know that it can be taxing for you to read it if you are not interested, but I am asking you to please do so if only for yourself so you know better what it is you are dealing with. We have to know what others believe, what it means to them, if we are going to talk with them or about their subjects even to help them.

        We know that the scriptures say that the natural is first and afterward is that which is spiritual. This is in line with what God is doing and said would be done IN THE EARTH. It is not done somewhere else because it has to be done here in us before we can go on to that “somewhere else” that the church teaches about.

        We are told we are to renew or change the “SPIRIT” of our mind, of our understanding. This does not mean we throw out everything we know, it means we change HOW we understand what we know or have experienced. We are to now understand all things according to the spirit that GIVES life, instead of according to the way things work in the world. {this is what overcoming the world is}

        We are to understand how God’s Kingdom is ruled and how God’s Kingdom comes into the world to be the condition of the new but same world through all men as the SONS of God that are all ONE nature and mind\understanding.

        I believe you know that the scripture says when God’s spirit is IN the EARTH, men will not learn war any more.

        Well, that is one of the reasons I can say knowingly that God is not in control in the world, by HIS choice. It is given to us all as THE son in spiritual inner maturity to bring all things in the world into the dominion of God as we with the Father in us put all things under OUR FEET as His son.

        This includes the earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and all other forces of nature, etc. Everything Jesus did by some unknown ability {miracle ability at that time from the father} is going to be done by us as sons, but through the natural powers of the world.

        All diseases and storms and wars and famines and so on are going to be ended by many many people in the world living like Jesus did, minus the miracles. We will know how it is done and be asked to do it as “men”, by overcoming the natural and as yet mysterious powers of the natural world.

        As we know, Paul said that it was the principle {law} of sin, or immaturity in his own body that caused him to disobey God. Scripture tells us that when we are deceived about God or do not believe the goodness of God, it is because of the ignorance IN US. Ignorance is simply immaturity and does not mean we are unable to learn.

        Elijah in the scriptures had Elisha follow him. When Elisha wanted a double portion of what Elijah had, Elijah told him that it was a hard thing he asked, BUT if he saw Elijah be removed from the earth BY GOD above, then he, Elisha would have a double portion.

        I understand the double portion as being able to understand BOTH sides of what is called the sword of the Lord, the word of God, while remaining on only ONE SIDE OF IT. {in life and not on the side that speaks of both life and death, life and anything that does not work life in ourselves and in others}.

        God does have to remove our reliance on our own understanding of scripture which we feel safe in and do not realize we are trusting in our own “selves”. I mean, people say, quite naturally, I can read and I know what the words say.

        John the baptist had to be “beheaded” or be removed from being able to be a witness ANY MORE before Jesus began to witness the father and reveal God’s nature.

        John himself said he could not do it and was not that light that was to come. Ie.. the law, the prophets, and the scriptures both old and new, CAN NOT give us that light. IN some places they may be able to speak ABOUT the coming of that light, but they are not able to reveal that light. Christ in us must do it from within us and we will have to follow “that word” instead of what we used to believe the words meant as men, through the methods of our natural nature. Otherwise we are still “as men” even though we believe in something greater, that something greater will remain “something that is still TO COME and we will not realize that the marriage of flesh and spirit is now prepared. We are to hear, come ye to the marriage. We need to have our wedding garments on.

        Moses could not take the Israelites into the promises {promised land}, could he? Why not? It was because his actions did not witness God to Israel at times, and he was angry with Israel at times, which is quite natural for men, but not good for a real adept teacher like Christ is.

        We read that the servant of the lord must be apt or able to teach, be no striker, GENTLE to ALL men, PATIENT. In meekness {obedience to Christ} instructing any who OPPOSE THEMSELVES, {as if they were opposing the Christ they are to become}.

        Jesus said of John, which is the spirit of the “prophets” or as you know, Jesus identified to his disciples as the same type of spirit that Elijah and thus as Moses and all others had, that he and thus that spirit, was BORN OF WOMAN. IT was not born of God.

        Jesus Himself is recorded as having said that there was none born of WOMAN greater than John etc., but that the LEAST of those that are IN THE KINGDOM are greater than he, greater than John\Elijah.

        That is why their witness and all other witnesses where they disagree with Jesus’ witness, must be removed BY GOD from before our eyes, or we will remain in the spirit of the prophets and so on instead of in the spirit of the son.

        John himself, the spirit of Elijah in man, is said to have sent his disciples to Jesus when John was in prison, and asked if Jesus really was the one they looked for. Why did John say that after he himself had witnessed out of his own mouth about Jesus as being the one who was to come?

        It was because the WAY John and thus the spirit of Elijah in man thinks God’s judgment and rule comes was NOT WHAT JOHN WAS hearing and seeing. In other words, John also expected worldly carnal methods of fire and retribution for “evil” to be enacted by Jesus. Jesus changes not. What Jesus enacted was the truth of God and HOW His Kingdom is accomplished and obeyed in the world.

        Here is what it says will happen when Christ or God comes. Israel had this witness by word in their own scriptures of the time, but did not hear them. When Jesus was asked by the representatives of the priesthood and sects of the day if he was the one and what sign he showed, he told them to tell the priests that the blind were seeing, the deaf were hearing, the lame were walking, and the sick were being healed.

        Isa 35:3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
        Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
        Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
        Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
        Isa 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
        Isa 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
        Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
        Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

        God’s vengeance is against error, evil, and death. He gives joy for ashes, etc. That is what the Lord’s vengeance is and that is what John the Baptist and all others DID NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND. God gives light that removes the darkness\ignorance and God gives love that removes hate, anger, greed, envy, and so on. THAT is the vengeance of God, it is against death and all of it’s motivations and causes.

        That in effect is the true witness of God that Jesus LIVED.

        We need to understand, spiritually, that the church dwells in A SPIRITUAL and MENTAL WILDERNESS when it is not IN THE PROMISES. Only the BRIDE, the NEW JERUSALEM people, are in the promises or thus in the “promised land” because of coming OUT OF THEIR WILDERNESS. The wilderness the church has been in is a wilderness of spiritual and mental dwellings. At that time, the time of the promises to the church remains only with God “in spirit\heaven”, as the man child. The promise is not ON or IN the earth or completely upon the church when it is pictured as being IN THE WILDERNESS.

        This is the same example of Israel when they were in the wilderness. Where we are to go is not far away, but we like to remain in the wilderness because of our unbelief that we can actually be taught by God personally and becuase we do not think or want to think we can be HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS through Him, right now.

        We are told to seek FIRST the kingdom or rule of God in us AND HIS righteousness, to become our own actual righteousness.
        Otherwise, why would you and Christianity be looking for SOMETHING else, something more, something better than at present?

        Isa 32:9 Rise up, ye women that are at ease; hear my voice, ye careless daughters; give ear unto my speech.
        Isa 32:10 Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come.
        Isa 32:11 Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins.
        Isa 32:12 They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine.
        Isa 32:13 Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city:
        Isa 32:14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks;
        Isa 32:15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
        Isa 32:16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
        Isa 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
        Isa 32:18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
        Isa 32:19 When it shall hail, coming down on the forest; and the city shall be low in a low place.
        Isa 32:20 Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass.

        Please notice that the two last verses above clearly say there will be hail and low places in the earth even thought the believer is still here. We are not leaving the earth and neither did Noah. In Noah’s day it was unbelief that was removed. Certainly when the flood did come, the people who did not believe it would come TO THEM did not disbelieve any longer.

        The return of Israel as a nation is like a “resurrection” of a nation from among the nations\dead. Just one of the signs of the times. There is a spiritual parallel taking place at the same time, all over. And yes, it is still filled with much confusion because of the natural bent of humans to think because they know a little they know it all. {much talk of spiritual living, without ability to describe it, belief in crystals, ghosts, swamis, gurus, and many other like natural minded ideas about “spirit” things}.

        God has come, and if we do not wait upon Him and let him teach us enough so that we can do a good work through him, we cause all the present confusion because of our impatience and little pride.

        God HAS COME DOWN and has confounded our speech, because we do not listen properly or enough. We as natural people, obtain a little bit of revelation understanding and want to run out and tell all the people all we know right away, not knowing what or how much we still do not know. Thus, we incorporate revelation from God INTO OUR well meaning but incorrect present natural minded understanding of doctrine and of God.

        We are confounded by our many differing doctrines and ideas and teachings about revelation and so on, not knowing things as we need to or can know them IF we wait upon the Lord our own selves and put down our own ideas of our own pride and ability etc. Jesus was thirty years in Israel before he openly showed himself.

        He, Jesus, also HAD to be baptized in or by the Spirit of God. Not many realize this truth. Jesus’ story is our own story.

        Rise up as an eagle, one must WAIT upon the Lord and FOLLOW HIM for a good while first. When Jesus said follow me, he did not say follow the prophets equally. Yes, the scriptures and how men understand them etc., are a schoolteacher UNTIL christ comes in us, but… the schoolteacher has made itself our god because of our natural ignorance about the truth of God.

        ONLY GOD knows God. We have to learn who God is FROM GOD, not books or men who are not Godly within.

        The following is about Christ, and hearing him, and waiting upon him.

        Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
        Job 29:12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
        Job 29:13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.
        Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
        Job 29:15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.
        Job 29:16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.
        Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

        Job 29:18 Then I said, *I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.*

        Job 29:19 My root was spread out by the waters, and the dew lay all night upon my branch.
        Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.
        Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel.
        Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
        Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.
        Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.
        Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.

        Man has been dwelling in and showing the death of Christ IN MAN for all his history up to now.

        Jesus is recorded as having said to some people, WHEN HE WAS PRESENT IN THE EARTH, go and sin no more. Do we think he was teaching or telling the people something that was not possible, “when HE IS PRESENT”? I hope no one thinks that way about Jesus, because if they do they do not know enough yet.

        In Isaiah we read that what Jesus said about “preaching” the gospel did not include the sharing about the DAY OF VENGEANCE of God. What is God’s vengeance. We can read if for our selves.

        Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
        Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,***{when Jesus spoke in the temple that day, he stopped right here. He “preached the kingdom, but it was not established yet because it is established only when God takes his vengeance upon the man of sin or immaturity we all are at first by birth in the world}

        {here is the rest of what he did not say at that time}
        ** and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
        Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
        Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
        Isa 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
        Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
        Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
        Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
        Isa 61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
        Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
        Isa 61:11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

        I just want to re confirm just what the vengeance of the Lord really is, and I quote part of it here again for emphasis about what His VENGEANCE really is. IT is not vengeance like a man thinks or operates in.

        **God’s vengeance is** to comfort all that mourn;
        Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

        All God’s vengeance is spiritual, and is life gaining victor over death, and must take place IN THE LIFE IN US. God is entering the creation to restore all good things through HIS LIFE that is INSIDE OF US, OUR LIFE. That is how he comes as a thief to bind the strong man or carnal natural person we all are at first.

        God destroys immaturity with maturity, he slays ignorance by replacing it in us with his wisdom, he destroys the captivity of the life he gave us that we have given over to the uses of childishness by bringing us to maturity and destroying the bonds of captivity that we have subjected the uses of his life in us to.

        We could not do either good or evil if we were not alive, and it is the life God gave to mankind that we use to do evil works upon others and our own selves at times. THIS IS THE CAPTIVE that needs to be set free, the life IN US.

        The man we all can be, and eventually will be, is kept captive to our immaturity and to the uses of affliction and death, UNTIL we stop using the life in us to do evil, no matter what anyone else does or says about it. That too is Jesus’ witness of what HE IS LIKE. So, that is what HIS FATHER is like also. He always does what HE sees with His father, he said.

        I hope this is helpful. God bless in the love of Christ.

  22. donsands says:

    Ken, You are so out of bounds of the truth of Scripture you are in the last row in the bleachers my friend.
    I have no idea what you are trying to say. You sound like an agnostic to me.
    May the Lord bring you into the light of His truth. And perhaps you need to listen to some of God’s proven teachers and pastors: Jonathan Edwards would be a good one. JC Ryle is excellent. John MacArthur, and Alistair Begg would be great.
    Here’s Alistair Begg’s website:
    Do yourself a favor my friend and check out Alistair, he can help your confused mind.

    1. ken says:


      What I am saying is…Peter says we are to be partakers of the divine nature. The divine nature is who God is, and the attributes of the divine nature, which is spiritual, is also what Jesus defines as being what the Kingdom of God within is. On the sermon on the mount, Jesus descibes the attributes of the divine nature, which is God and HIs father.

      When the divine nature is within anyone as who they are, they will always obey that nature as their God. They therefore will also be the SON bodily, that has been raised up out of the dust to the maturity of God.

      The change spoken of is putting off the old man, the carnal double minded nature which does both good and evil, to become the divine nature which is the nature of life itself, and is only good both in nature and in works or results.

      God’s correction takes place within, and if we do not believe this yet and side with Jesus’ words, the strong man we are in our natural nature is not yet bound. The strong man is bound, as scripture says, by Christ ENTERING INTO THAT House and FIRST binding the stong man. Then the goods, meaning the attributes and desires and will of the carnal nature which is the nature of death, can be bound because participation by each of us is crucial and necessary because of the desire of God to do it that way.

      God is coming in the life in you. Period. Life is a free gift, but obedience to holiness is growth that is necessary to obtain eternal life.

      Otherwise we build our house on the sand. Jesus said, if we hear *HIS* words and do not *do* them we are not “his house”. And if we are doing wrong things and are not corrected within by God, then we are not yet his son. Love does no ill to his neighbour.

      When God corrects, he causes us to be made correct. Correction means to be made correct. That is the only judgment god gives.

      For instance, God’s judgment, meaning the wisdom and discernment and understanding God is and has, is GOOD. Therfore, when we teach about God judging, we want to say that His judgment is good and perfects us, period. He does no evil to anyone, ever. That too is a witness Jesus lived.

      God removes ignorance with His wisdom, he removes immaturity with His maturity, etc. Does not the scripture say our HOPE is eternal life.

      God bless, ken

  23. ognywogny says:

    Why can’t we just burn our heretics (like Rob Bell)like in the good old days. “If thy right eye offend thee…..”

    1. ken says:

      Hello Ognywogny.

      In Revelation when satan and the kings of the nations come against New Jerusalem, fire comes down from heaven it says, and devours them. Yes. God is a consuming fire, and He is also Love. The fire and the love are the same thing.

      Hate, anger, unbelief, greed, jealousy, and so on can not live where love is being felt and is not able to be dethroned. When love is eternally FELT, it has power, and it swallows up and slays all hate, anger, etc.

      Hate and anger and so on can not exist or coexist at the same time with Love. The kicker is, the love has to be IN US as OUR OWN LOVE.

      THis is the joy set before us
      God bless. Ken

  24. donsands says:

    “Hate and anger and so on can not exist or coexist at the same time with Love. The kicker is, the love has to be IN US as OUR OWN LOVE.”

    Jesus whipped the people out of the Temple. Righteous anger is a good thing. The love I have is a fruit from the Holy Spirit. He gets all the glory.

    You are in grave trouble ken. You need to check out the website I gave you.

    1. ken says:

      Hello Donsands.

      Thank you for your reply. I would like to offer you the possibility of understanding the incident of Jesus Christ in the temple in a far different way. You then can decide which one is going to be “your” Jesus. The spirit of the world sees or reads the scriptures according to the way the world works. That is the “world” we must overcome if we are to find God in our heart.

      The REAL temple that Christ sanctifies and cleanses in OUR BODY which is to be the temple of God, as scripture does call it. He cleanses out lives by having us put out all things that offend. You realize that scripture says He comes to put OUT OF HIS FATHER’S KINGDOM [which is to be in us} OUT. The tares are to be bound first.

      Since God is love and Jesus Christ is one with God, he also is love. It is HIM, meaning all that love is, that puts out of us all things that are anti love, anti Christ. This is only able to be done by ESTABLISHING and reinforcing love in us. Love puts out all things that are not love.

      Having said that, here is what I have received about the temple incident.

      First, I remind us that Israel did not have the Holy Spirit. Scripture says that the Holy Spirit was not yet given when Jesus was in Israel.

      Second, Jesus himself said he is come to save mens lives, NOT TO DESTROY mens lives.
      KJV Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
      Also, keep in mind that he never changes. He has the same purpose still, today, at “his coming”.

      If you are sincere in thinking about your life, you know you still need to be “saved” from the power of some un-Christlike things that overtake you time to time, even against your desire.

      In other words, we still need to be actually in the power of the salvation HERE.

      Jesus also said that he would not accuse them to the father, Moses did that.

      It also says in James 1:20 that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. So, if Jesus was a man, which he was, and he did anything in anger\wrath, he would be a sinner. Short of the glory of God.

      So here is the way I have been given to understand the temple incident, keeping Jesus’ image true to the father’s love and to the word he gave about coming to save the lives of men, not to destroy them.

      First, scripture says that Jesus took time to make a scourge of SMALL CHORDS. He found in the temple the animals and that is what the scourge was for… the animals. They do not understand man’s language. You know how one flicks a whip or scourge from one side of the animals and then to the other side of the animals while herding them through a gate or into the barn. This is done without hitting the animals, they simply turn away from the noise of the snapping of the whip. Jesus herded them out of the temple door.

      How can we know this. Well, the men were still there when the scripture says Jesus SAID TO THEM something. In other words, he was not yelling. He was teaching. Mark says this also.
      Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
      Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
      Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

      HE taught them not to make his fathers house a house of merchandise. That is also what he is going to and is now teaching us today. I am saying Christ is beginning to actually correct the church today, as all correction must begin at the HOUSE OF GOD in the world. To correct meant so “make correct or right”, it does not mean to afflict or punish like men very often want to do it.

      To correct someone is to give them the knowledge of what is right to do and then let them do it, and if they do it, they are then corrected to righteousness.
      This is how God works. He is always bettering and improving us onward always toward maturity in Christ.

      Do we not understand that God has literally thousands of methods at his disposal to bring us to the truth, instead of having to do evil to us as if that would teach us what good is. If God actually did hurt and maim and kill people, he would be doing the same thing we now call child abuse and sex abuse etc. when adults and people of power over others do it to those they have physical and financial power over.

      Jesus told the people in the temple to take their things out, he did not destroy their things and he allowed them to keep them. It was just that they did not belong in the temple, and that was what HE TAUGHT them and now is going to teach us, spiritually.

      Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

      Isaiah 53 says Jesus did NO VIOLENCE. Do you think this means only at the time of the cross, or do you think it means he NEVER did any violence at any time. That is the truth. He never was violent.

      Jesus is a great teacher, and a teacher teaches, they do not berate and call the students stupid and beat them and so on because they are doing what they DO NOT KNOW is wrong.

      As we know, Jesus said on the cross, father forgive them, {all} for they know not what they are doing.
      This is the unchanging Jesus Christ, the spirit of God in Jesus. Do you think he only forgave them for the crucifying him, or was he ALWAYS forgiving. We have to understand that Jesus knew what he was doing from the beginning, and he would not be disparaging or mistakenly witnessing that God was understanding and forgiving at any time.

      It is up to you now which Jesus you thing is the true one, and which one you want to have dealing with you.

      Thanks again and God bless.
      Your friend, Ken

  25. donsands says:

    “In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.”

    In Matt, Luke , & Mark the truth is that Jesus drove out the poeple.

    You have a big time problem my friend.

    Where do you attend church? Does your church have a website?

  26. ken says:

    Hello Donsans

    I am not sure if you are reading the whole note I write to you or not, but it does not look like you are. That is your perogative of course, but if you are not you could tell me and I will just let it go. Thanks.

    I guess Jesus must have driven himself outside too, because he is quoted as saying… take these things hence or out of here. Do you not read that.

    Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

    And again it says he SAID to them, ie.. not yelled or berated or any such thing. What is reading the scriptures and interpreting the scriptures to say that Jesus was angry is the anger in man.

    When we read the scriptures it is our own spirit that is the interpreter, and so what spirit is it, man’s or God’s IN US at the time?

    Do you not read that in Timothy and in 1 Cor. 5:5 BELIEVERS are given over to Satan for not doing correctly? So, are you going to say now, that Jesus and Satan do the same works and can sometimes be the same spirit? THAT is confusion, my friend, and it is in those who believe that God operates like man does.

    In scripture it is MAN who stones the sinner, not God. THe ways of sin are done upon sinners, which is entirely scriptural. OUR OWN ways are poured out upon, and our disobedient ways are not the ways or spirit of God. We really need to understand this or we remain in the wilderness where the woman {church in general} in Revelation remains.

    Isaiah 5:10 tells us pretty clearly that the Assyrian, or man, is the rod of wrath\anger.

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

    You see, sinners and the natural spirit or ways of the world do the evil to evildoers, which is their\our own evil ways upon us. This is so we learn it is evil to do or have evil done to us or anyone, and so we are not to be doers of it no matter what.

    IF you think that perhaps this is not so, please read the following. It is the rod of anger\wrath that afflicted Jesus and yet was called the prince of this world that was coming.

    Lam 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

    Yet, clearly we see WHO that rod is, by Jesus’ own words in the next scripture. It is the natural ways of MAN, unregenerated mankind.

    Mat 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be BETRAYED INTO the hands of men:
    Mat 17:23 And THEY SHALL KILL HIM, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

    Yes, it was still men who “stoned” Jesus Christ, figuratively speaking. They are the “wrath” that was upon Jesus Christ for us.
    WE are guilty, all of us. But we are also forgiven because we were ignorant, but today is the day of revelation of the truth and the untruth also.

    As I said, in 1 Corinthians 5:5 a believer is given over to satan to learn not to blaspheme. Yet, in Matthew 5 Jesus tells us what that which we are given over to much more clearly.

    Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to BE TRODDEN UNDER FOOT OF *MEN*. {the spirit of the world}

    The Assyrian, or man, the rod of his wrath, is also “the satan” {sin in man} that we are given over to when we are willfully and even ignorantly disobedient to Jesus’ WORDS about how we as Christians are to be. Today is the day, the light shines again.

    I do hope this is helpful. There is nothing here that is not scriptural and that can not be used to help us finally understand spiritual things clearly. The tares and the wheat are able to be divided correctly today, if we have ears and eyes from God.

    1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Do we think that the “satan” we are given over to and under when we are disobedient is the same as the Spirit of God? I hope not, because that is the source of the confusion.

    Is there wrath in heaven? No, I do not think anyone would think there is. IT is ETERNAL peace and joy and so on. So…wrath anger etc. are not of the “eternal Spirit” which is the spirit of God.

    Wrath is NOT a spirit of, in, or the establishing of the KINGDOM OF GOD in anyone. THe kingdom of God in you means the obedient rule of God in His sons.

    Revelation tells us that there is no more curse IN NEW JERUSALEM.
    So, who is to be new Jerusalem, the bride? If there is no curse in them, then the curse is not of the eternal spirit either, nor it’s works. If there is eventually no more curse, then the curse is not of the eternal unchanging spirit of God.

    God bless, ken

  27. donsands says:

    Ken, you are a confused person.

    “I do hope this is helpful.” No it’s totoally unhelpful.
    “There is nothing here that is not scriptural and that can not be used to help us finally understand spiritual things clearly.”

    Just about everything you say is unscriptural.

    You didn’t tell me where you go to church. If you don’t mind that is.

  28. ken says:

    Hello Donsands

    Thanks for the reply. No I don’t mind telling where I go to church. I am not of any particular denomination. I go to quite a few different churches at various times where I know some people and see them time to time. I have coffee and a sandwich afterward with them, sometimes, etc. But I do not go to church for the purpose of learning anything particular. I just go to enjoy.

    As to where I learn. I became seriously focused about 35 years ago when I had a more serious encounter with God in my life. I was told I had been sort of sitting on the fence for a long time and it was time to get off on one side or the other. I knew immediately what was meant. I then began to be “more” seriously focused on my walk with Christ. From then on whenever I thought about going somewhere or even reading some books in bible book stores, I ALWAYS received something akin to… be still and {come to} Know that I am God.

    When I used to look at the bank of books in the bible book stores at times, {I used to visit an elderly lady in one who had been the wife of a pastor and I gave her a lift home once in a while when I was in the area}, I heard, … of the writing of books there is no end, and if all the things that Christ has done were written in books the world itself could not hold them.

    And… if anyone who wrote a book and had the truth they had to get it from me {Christ}, and if I gave it to them I can give it to you.
    These came to my thoughts. Also, as you know, the scripture does say that we need not that any man should teach us because we do have an anointing from the Holy One. 1 John 2:20 and 27.

    The “anointing” or Spirit WILL TEACH US.. if we believe and IF we choose the good and refuse the evil as scripture says “the son” will do. I must say also, that we as men who are familiar with both good things and bad things happening in the world, think many things that are really works done by evil, are good. This is a natural happening. It is also the picture of eve being deceived.

    In scripture eve did not think she was doing something wrong. She thought that she would be being like God in what she did. {this is the biblical picture presented}. She {and we} think it is good to do some things and that in doing them we are like God is, BUT.. we err because we are fooled by the spirit or workings of the world which is all we know in the beginning of our lives in it.

    Causing pain and suffering to anyone, no matter whether we think they deserve it or not, is evil TO THEM. In other words, we tend as man to do evil to some people as if DOING evil things to them can teach them to be good.

    You see, what we miss in understanding is that giving someone the experience of evil in the guise of teaching them to be good ONLY teaches them evil, as if it can teach goodness. That is “the lie” we all fall to time to time.

    I would like to share something here just for a bit.

    The beasts in scripture are kingdoms, and the horns are kings.
    The kingdoms are of the spirit of man and the world, and they have some good things in them and some not good things in them because these kingdoms of man produce results that come from the WAY man lives and acts within those kingdoms or empires.

    The beast that had a wound by a sword is the empires etc. that are ruled by man in the carnal natured way. Jesus Christ’s teaching and lifestyle in the world in Israel and his spiritually understood words were the sword that was beginning to put an end to the rule of natural man in the world, IF his ways would be lived by man.

    So the kingdoms of man, {the beasts} had a wound by the sword of the Lord via Jesus Christ’s true witness and LIFESTYLE.

    When Jesus was crucified the ways of natural man became the rule in the world again, and his kingdoms and nature are the beast that recovered from the would Christ COULD have caused it in us, and the beast rose up again.

    Simply put, natural man ruled, Jesus came as the spiritual man who did what God desires, He died, and the natural rule IN MAN remained and ruled in the world again.

    That is all there is to the story of the beast that had a wound by a sword and recovered and continued to exist as “the way” in the world. Sin {immaturity} in man that causes death in the world is the “prince” of this world. IT exists only because of the continuance of life man has in the world because of the power of the air or oxygen he must breath, etc. Ephesians 2:1 – 3.

    Death is the last “god” of this world that everyone who dies bows the knee to, figuratively speaking.

    God has and continues to give us the spirit and mind of PEACE and there is really nothing else to be afraid of in this world but what is natural for this world. God HAS NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR AGAIN, but of PEACE and a sound mind.

    Without peace and holiness {God’s righteousness}, NO MAN shall SEE [or understand} God.

    This peace and holiness must be within us. We can not have peace without being peaceful.

    Also, GOD raises HIS SONS according to the spirit of holiness.
    Romans 1.

    IF you look at the last time beast in Revelation, you will see that it says that the whole beast is the last “king and kingdom”. This is nothing more than democracy, where the body of the beast that is the last king,is typical of the people of the “kingdom”.

    Government of the people, for the people, BY the people. This principle of course, is less than perfectly accomplished by men because of greed and selfishness and pride and so on in man. But the last time government of rule of man that will exist before Christ appears IN MAN is domocracy.

    I share this because you can NOW see it beginning to take place in the mid east and other places. But God is not causing the violence of motivating the people to rebel. Personal desire for freedom as they see it, and for the goods they have seen the kids and people of the west have is their motive even though they do not know it very clearly.

    thanks again, and God bless. Christ comes to SAVE {perfect} men’s lives… within man.

    Thank you and God bless.

  29. ken says:

    Just a bit more about Christ IN YOU and eventually in all.

    Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because HE HAD DONE *NO* VIOLENCE, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    This says he “never” did any violence, it does not mean that it was only on the cross that he did no violence. He HAD DONE no violence, period.

    It takes the lionlike strength of God {love felt\alive} to BE THAT LAMB.

    If we become the spirit of the LAMB OF GOD, we will be given the opening of the “seals of the book”. Only the lamb is given that from God because the interpretaition of the scripture is according to the testimony of Jesus. Not the words only, but the lifestyle of holiness. No voilence or hate to anyone. We will be given wisdom to live in the world without fanfare and know how to get along in it without doing evil and staying out of the way of those who do. That will come from God to each of us as we grow spiritually.

    The inside is made clearn FIRST. And AFTERWARD the outside will be the “same” clean, or … live by the righteousness of God in it.

    Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
    Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and *WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.
    Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud {heard everywhere} voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
    Rev 5:13 And EVERY CREATURE {created thing}which is in heaven, and ON THE EARTH and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and ALL that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    Rev 5:14 And FOUR BEASTS {all kingdoms of men} said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    We know New Jerusalem is also to be ON THE EARTH.

    God bless, Ken

  30. donsands says:

    “But I do not go to church for the purpose of learning anything particular. I just go to enjoy.”

    That’s not what a worshiper of God does. You need to repent, and ask God to open your heart to His truth my friend.

    And you need to stop commenting so much.

    It was an experience meeting you and dialoging, but we need to aprt our seperate ways I’m afraid.
    I encourage you to check out the website I gave you. Or perhaps this one:
    And listen to these men of God, and their mature learned teachings.

    1. Penny says:

      Dearest Brother Donsands,

      Have you ever thought to go into your ‘closest’ and ask the Lord to reveal to you His very nature, so that you might know Him as He truly IS? God is LOVE, and His nature is the attributes of Love, not evil, not condemnation, not anger. By what authority do you condemn your own brother in Christ? If you consider yourself righteous amongst your brethren, then act not out of God’s nature of Love towards them, then actually you are at that time not being fathered by God, but by the carnal-minded man of sin who abides not in the truth of God (you are at that time being father by your father, the devil,in whom there is no truth, and the lusts of your father you will do). Cloth yourself Donsands, for your nakedness is showing….then, you can feed your fellow brethren and not send them to listen to other “men of God and their ‘mature learned teachings”.

      Love in Christ to ALL,

    2. ken says:

      Hello Donsands.

      I realize that you are finished with this topic. I just wanted to let you know that I went to one of the web pages you suggested. It was the alpha omega web page. Here is what they had on it concerning what they believe. This was only the first statement.

      Alpha Omega first statement is just below….
      ***We believe the Bible to be the written revelation of God, complete and sufficient in all respects. We believe the Scriptures to be “God-breathed” and therefore fully authoritative in and of themselves; they rely for their authority upon no church, council, or creed, but are authoritative simply because they are the Word of God. The Scriptures, as they embody the very speaking of God, partake of His authority, His power.***

      I would like to share a few thoughts about just this one part of the whole statement. First, Is Jesus God or at least one with the Father, always doing the will of the father that is IN HIM.?

      The scriptures say He is so. So, why do we not do what Jesus said. What do I mean. Well, Christianity in general always falls back upon Moses and does not fulfill the scriptures Jesus is quoted as speaking, when they do not want to do what Jesus said to do.

      After all, is He one with God, or not? His ministry is of the spirit and His ministry SUPERCEDES all other ministries and words and beliefs that were in place or taught BEFORE HIM.

      He said in effect, to Christians IF they believe in him and want to build their house on the rock he is, that we have heard it said an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. {Now we know Moses taught that and many prophets DID that to other men, killing men who they said were idol worshippers or what have you}’

      Jesus did not witness killing or maiming anyone, and they were pretty well all unbelievers about HIM in his day in Israel.

      Jesus said about eye for eye, etc…. *I* say unto you, {if we do eye for eye as Moses and the prophets did} we are not resisting evil. {the evil is in us that would cause us to physically harm someone to get even with them, etc.}.

      We are to turn the other cheek. {physically, emotionally, financially, and mentally}. That is, if we want to continue in His word and know the truth, as He said to “disciples”.

      He whose word is the word of God far more correctly and authoritatively than any prophet of old, said one CAN NOT be His disciple if they do not pick up their own cross and follow Him. Jesus said that, not the prophets or anyone else.

      Jesus told the disciples\apostles to teach what HE HAD SAID TO THEM. He did not say to teach Moses and the prophets and so on. I am not against teaching about Moses and the prophets and the history of Israel, IF it is understood just WHAT it teaches.

      Basically, what they believed and taught and said in the O.T. in many places was to become the OLD that needed to be changed. The old is of the OLD MAN that needs to be changed. The Old Testament is only old because it is to be replaced and is to be understood as the faithful testimony of the OLD MAN nature that walks and thinks with the carnal mind and spirit.

      The things of God are NEVER OLD, they are eternal. I hope you may think about this. Why is the testimony called OLD, if it is God’s testimony.

      Jesus also did not stone the woman at the well, even thought Moses said that the one doing such a “sin” was to be stoned. Jesus came with the TRUTH, because the truth was veiled to and in the prophets and moses and all others.

      I hear that the bible also says we are to follow THE SPIRIT. We are to hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS, etc.

      Eze 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their OWN SPIRIT, and have SEEN nothing!

      Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

      As well as REV. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, and 3:13. And of course, not withstanding 1 John 2:20 and 27.

      As for God keeping the bible straight, it is in the hands of men and in the hands of men Christ is always slain, spiritually also.

      Look at all the different interpretations around today and the different things they say. God is allowing it, so… he always has allowed it, and that is why we need the testimony of Jesus and the indwelling of the spirit so we can HEAR HIM ourselves.

      God bless, ken

  31. ken says:

    Hello Donsands.

    Okay. Thanks for sharing. When I said I do not go to church to learn anything, I meant that I learn “at home from my husband”, Christ, spiritually speaking. {we are pictured as “the bride” in the scriptures, are we not?}

    I mentioned that I am taught by the spirit as scripture tells us we can be. Of course, I also understand that many may think me off line, as you also do.

    Again, thanks for sharing and will see you some day.

    God bless, ken

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Justin Taylor, PhD

Justin Taylor is executive vice president of book publishing and book publisher for Crossway and blogs at Between Two Worlds. You can follow him on Twitter.

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