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Last night, pastor Mark Driscoll joined Piers Morgan (CNN) to talk about his book, Real Marriage. Anytime Morgan gets a conservative Christian on television, he asks them about homosexuality and appeals to the “inevitability” of same-sex marriage and the need for tolerance.

Here is how Mark answered the question.

(If the video becomes available, I’ll post a link to it.)

MORGAN: Do too many people in the world of religion take it too seriously?

Is that part of the problem?

DRISCOLL: I think we should take Jesus seriously. We should take the Bible seriously. We probably shouldn’t take ourselves nearly as seriously. And that’s how I approach it.

MORGAN: Do you think you’re a tolerant kind of guy?

DRISCOLL: I love people very much and it’s — it’s —

MORGAN: That’s not the same thing.

DRISCOLL: Well, it’s — how do you disagree, sometimes, with people that you love?

That’s a very difficult issue for everybody, but for a pastor in particular, because —

MORGAN: But do you preach tolerance?

DRISCOLL: I’ve preached that we should love our neighbor, that we should accept —

MORGAN: But tolerance — tolerance in particular.

DRISCOLL: Why — you keep hammering it. What — what do you mean by tolerance?

MORGAN: Tolerating people who may have a lifestyle or a belief that you don’t agree with.

DRISCOLL: Yes, we have to. And that’s — when Jesus says love your neighbor, you know, he knows you’re not going to agree with all your neighbors, but he wants you to love them, to seek good for them, to care for them.


MORGAN: What did you make of the whole Kirk Cameron scandal, as it’s become, where he, you know, for 15 minutes here, he sat here espousing what I think he thought were perfectly normal Christian views. But he did it in a way that people saw was really very bigoted toward gays.

What did you think of that?

DRISCOLL: To be honest with you, I haven’t seen the whole thing. So I —

MORGAN: But you know what he said.

DRISCOLL: I saw some of the Twitter and, you know, some of the blogging and stuff. But that’s not always the best snapshot of the full context of the conversation. So I — I don’t know, to be honest with you.


I mean do you think that homosexuality is a sin?

DRISCOLL: The Bible says, on six occasions —

MORGAN: What do you think?

DRISCOLL: I believe that all sex outside of heterosexual marriage. So, me as a teenager having sex before marriage, that was wrong. People looking at pornography is wrong. Single people having sex is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong.

So there’s a long list of things that the Bible says is wrong.

MORGAN: Right. But given eighty states in America now have legalized gay marriage, that’s fine, right?

DRISCOLL: Well, no. I mean it’s amazing, because there were anti-sodomy laws and anti-fornication laws on the books just a few generations ago.

MORGAN: I mean, no one’s taking much account of the anti- fornication laws, are they?

DRISCOLL: Yes, I do — I don’t want to be the one to enforce those laws or go around —

MORGAN: Right. But my point is, it — you know, the Bible is what it is. It’s an extraordinary book —


MORGAN: — which has governed people’s moral and personal behavior now for —

DRISCOLL: Thousands of years.

MORGAN: — thousands of years.

However, like everything in life, shouldn’t it be dragged kicking and screaming into each modern era, and be adapted, like the American Constitution.


MORGAN: Because, you know, my — my view about this is — is not that I don’t respect Christians or Catholics or whoever who — who absolutely swear by every word in here. It’s just that it’s — I just don’t believe anyone who is genuinely Christian should be spouting bigoted opinions about sections of the community for their sexuality.

DRISCOLL: Well, I think when it comes to the Bible, you’ve got three options. Take it, I believe what it says. Leave it, I don’t believe what it says. Or change it —

MORGAN: Or adapt — or adapt the wording —

DRISCOLL: Which would be the changing it.

MORGAN: — for a modern era.

DRISCOLL: That would be the changing of it. That’s exactly what, for example, Thomas Jefferson did. He literally sat down in the White House with scissors and cut the parts out that he didn’t feel should be in there.

MORGAN: But given that more Americans now believe that gay marriage is acceptable than don’t in this country —

DRISCOLL: Well, we don’t know, because it has — it hasn’t been voted on.

MORGAN: No, but that’s what the latest polls — national polls have said.

DRISCOLL: Well, there’s — there’s the polls, there’s the news, there’s the truth. Until there’s a vote, we really don’t know.

MORGAN: Right. So let’s get to the point where there is one day a vote, right?


MORGAN: If it was in — the majority of Americans believed in it, would you then go along with it?

DRISCOLL: Would I officiate same-sex weddings and things of that nature?


DRISCOLL: I couldn’t, according to conscience, no.

I think the big issue for families in America is really men who walk out on their families. I mean, right now, the average child born to a woman under 30 is born out of wedlock —

MORGAN: Yes, but that’s why —

DRISCOLL: — with no father.

MORGAN: — see, that’s my whole point about this. There are so many feckless guys out there —

DRISCOLL: That’s really —

MORGAN: — right?


MORGAN: Who marry endless times —

DRISCOLL: And just keep having kids.

MORGAN: — they have had —

DRISCOLL: They don’t —

MORGAN: — hundreds of kids.

DRISCOLL: — fund them, they don’t.

MORGAN: They have no responsibility.

DRISCOLL: They don’t support them.

MORGAN: They’re ghastly human beings.

DRISCOLL: That’s the heartbreak.

MORGAN: I don’t hear many pastors, at least Catholic ones or Christian ones, ranting about those guys. All they want to rant about are gay marriage in loving, monogamous relationships with a — with one other person who just want to have the same right to get married as I do as a straight guy.

DRISCOLL: Yes, for me, I hammer those guys like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo. That’s really —

MORGAN: Oh, come on.

DRISCOLL: — like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo. That’s my sweet spot, young guys who don’t get married, they take advantage of women, they sexually assault, they’re addicted to porn, they’re irresponsible. I mean, for the first time in the nation’s history, a woman is more likely to be in church, college and the workforce than a young single man.

And there’s sexual assault, sexual abuse, abortion, children born out of wedlock. Forty percent of kids go to bed without a father. I mean to me, if we’re going to talk about, you know, what’s really harming the country —

MORGAN: You see —

DRISCOLL: — that’s a big issue.

MORGAN: Well, I agree with all that. But I also think what is harming America right now, like many countries around the world, is just a fundamental lack of tolerance and respect for people who may not share your personal values. You know, I just think that pastors like you, funny enough, are in a great position to trail blaze a bit, you know, to take this great book and bring it slightly kicking and screaming into the modern era a bit.

Because eventually America will get to that position anyway, and quite fast.

DRISCOLL: It’s moving fast.

MORGAN: So it’s going to be happen.

DRISCOLL: I’m also a guy, I believe the Bible.

– For the full transcript, click here.

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37 thoughts on “Mark Driscoll on Piers Morgan – Transcript”

  1. Denny says:

    Another reason why I don’t have cable tv. Someone should ask Pier Morgan if he is tolerant of people don’t agree with his belief.

    1. Jonathan says:

      exactly denny!

      1. ian says:

        That doesn’t really work though when the belief being disagreed with is predudice (which is what people like Morgan think the bible’s teaching on homosexuality is). It’s like you being asked if you’re tolerent of rascists.

  2. Thanks for posting this! I wasn’t able to watch it. Driscoll did a great job at hammering away at the “adapt” vs. “change” aspect of the Bible in the twenty-first century.

    Morgan seems to think that just because a majority of Americans want gay marriage — which has not been proven statistically, and I would challenge his assertion to the contrary — that the Bible should be “adapted” to suit modern statistics.

    That’s absurd. If our culture deemed it acceptable to burn all baby kittens, would it then okay to do so? According to Morgan’s worldview, yes.

    1. Tyler Smith says:

      Totally agree. I think Driscoll handled the interview very well.

  3. Bryan Cross says:

    Morgan seems to presuppose that polls determine morality, and that social trends are always and only in the direction of moral progress. Moreover, if the proliferation of certain action types are gravely harmful to the common good, then they should not be tolerated by society. So the toleration question depends upon the more fundamental question of the detrimental effects of homosexual behavior on marriage, family and society. That’s why the defensive retreat into “I believe the Bible …” isn’t sufficient in the public square, because then the Bible’s intolerance of an ‘innocuous’ behavior seems “bigoted” and unjustified, and only serves further to discredit the Bible in the public eye.

  4. brian says:

    Predictable… let’s get Christian leaders on TV, bombard them with tons of questions about homosexuality, then complain that all Christian leaders talk about is homosexuality.

  5. purisomniapura says:

    Hard to follow the flow with Piers Morgan constantly interrupting Mark on every question. He asks questions but doesn’t seem to want to listen to the answers.

    1. Gina says:

      I agree.

  6. It seems that Morgan has some kind of ax to grind. He pressed Kirk Cameron on the same subject. And Morgan is just plainly wrong in suggesting that “more Americans now believe that gay marriage is acceptable than don’t in this country.” His whole line of argument shows that he has thoughtlessly bought into the deceptive propaganda. I exposed the 7 main points here:

    1. purisomniapura says:

      I think you’re right about Piers. Christine O’Donnell was invited on his show to discuss her book & role in the Tea Party. All he did was badger her over & over about what she thinks about homosexual marriage. She continually asked him to stop questioning her on topics that were not previously agreed on but to stay on topic of her book. He became so persistent that she walked off the stage during the interview because he wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. Piers is wholly interested in stirring the pot concerning the homosexual cause & nothing else …which is why he seems to invite conservatives on, to harass them about homosexuality, even when they’re not on the show to discuss sex.

      1. JoeS says:

        I’ve been calling this last week or so Piers Morgan’s “victory lap.” He is taking every chance to say “See what I did? I started a major controversy by bullying a Christian into admitting he believes the Bible. I am relevant.”

  7. Michael says:

    Why are so many Christian leaders in the public sector fearful of the homosexual agenda? We so frequently tip-toe around, trying to avoid such questions and confrontations in the media. We look scared and weak. My question is, Who is going to boldly stand up in front of this agenda? Who is going to sacrifice their reputation to actually return to preaching what Scripture says on this matter and make it clear where the church stands. The way we try and placate this agenda and all the care and concern to demonstrate loving and tolerance and politcal correctness (to the point of being an unbiblical perversion and distortion), deserves all the ridicule we receive anyway for our indirect and sheepish statements.

    We need a fearless leader who doesn’t care what the press makes of his name or reputation. But who will preach the Word of God and make it clear where the American church stands. If there were ever a time to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, it is now.

    1. Denny says:

      I think Driscoll and Kirk Cameron did stand up to Piers Morgan and said exactly what the Bible said about homosexuality, etc. Neither of these men were looking out for their reputation or were afraid to stand their ground. Piers Morgan wanted to embarrass these men and when he did not get the answers in ways he wanted them, he tried to push them around through his questions.

  8. Peter G. says:

    I think that should be *eight* states not eighty!

    1. Gina says:

      Yeah Peter! And in his interview with Kirk Cameron, he said seven…..

  9. Ryan Phelps says:

    I don’t know, he did ok. But there is something to the idea, I’d say, that too many answers to too many questions is unhelpful. Morgan is good at pushing people into a corner rhetorically even when his logic actually is unsupportive of that rhetoric. But the only way to expose that is by making him answer to the same logic he’s supposedly building his position on. In other words, shut up. Make him answer questions. Make him defend his specious idea of “tolerance.” Actually, Driscoll only had the leverage when he asked, “…what do you mean by tolerance?”

    Greg Koukl’s “Columbo Tactic” could have served him well here. In fact, that’s what I’d like to see. Koukl with Morgan.

  10. Rhonda Lampton says:

    Oh please let Mr. MORGAN invite John Macarthur on next. Let him try to pin that man of God down.

    1. purisomniapura says:

      I had the same thought …he always stood up to Larry King so well & Larry often had his mouth stoppped.

    2. Christiane says:

      He can start by questioning John MacArthur about his teachings re: Catholicism that are not accurate, ie. MacArthur says that the Catholic Church teaches the Virgin birth of Mary. This is not true. The Church teaches that Mary had two parents, a physical mother and a physical father.

      you would think that there is ENOUGH true about Catholicism that MacArthur could expound against, but no, he made stuff up . . . was he ‘mistaken’ and ‘mis spoke’? Him? I think he is too smart for that. I think it was intentional, yes. And having done this, and been called on it, he has not corrected himself . . . one must ask what else he teaches that is not accurate.

      John MacArthur does not adhere to truth consistently. He is not one to raise up as ‘authoritative’ and follow, no.

  11. Phil says:

    With regard to the comment that “all Piers did was badger him on homosexual marriage,” well that is a huge issue right now, so it seems to make sense to ask him about it (repeatedly).

    Also, I think Piers is ultimately right. Here is a great opportunity to bring the Bible into the modern era…and I think what the Bible “says” about homosexuality will ultimately be disgarded (or, really, re-interpreted). Remember how the bible explicitly permits slavery? Who is willing to argue that slavery is ok today?

  12. Melody says:

    Phil what you think doesn’t really matter. It’s what God says.

    1. Phil says:

      Exactly right. God says slavery is ok.

      1. Benton says:

        Phil, what do you mean when you say God/the Bible explicitly permits slavery?

        Before you answer that question, are you referring to Old Testament regulations given to the nation of Israel that was a theocratic government, under the old covenant? Or are you referring to something in the New Testament that is *descriptive* rather than *prescriptive*?

        Are you interpreting the Bible in context or out?

      2. shawn says:

        in what earlier century, Phil, after the cannon was closed, has the Bible been modified to omit or permit what was socially acceptable at the time? And if it was changed, how did that work out? If you can answer that, then we’ll talk about changing the Bible. But if you’re going to use slavery as an example, have you studied slavery in Paul’s day. Most were more like indentured servants, paying their way free. Paul was himself more interested in the actions of a person in the life they had, not in seeking justice by manmade means. It was only by a person’s REAL heart to follow Jesus that change would ever come, so he never had to speak against cruelty, but only to lift up Jesus. this is why you miss the point and always will. Without Jesus, Christianity is a joke. Jesus is the breaker of chains, not Christian morality, or even the Bible. Follow Jesus. Not culture!

  13. Elaine H. says:

    Wow! Piers and Mark never said anything in this snippet. Neither of them gave a straight answer nor asked a real question….

    And you all are just adding your own interpretation to what wasn’t!

  14. Thomas says:

    PLEASE, please post the video when it comes available. Morgan uses classic and common argumentation that is laughable as it is flimsy. Unfortunately in an era of soundbites, visceral decision making and intellectual laziness it is too often believed as true. Just because a man has a blowhorn and talks of accepting laissez faire morality does not make it a right and certainly does not make it right.

  15. Paul Fekete says:

    The church needs to realize that the best defense is a good offense on this issue. Staying silent on the issue of marriage is not an viable option. Thank God for brave men like Mark Driscoll who risked his reputation and showed that he is not ashamed of the words of Jesus around the definition of marriage.

  16. Sam says:

    Winced as I read this.

  17. Jake says:

    Piers made a comment that all pastors want to do is rant about gay marriage. I’ve been in church my whole life and I don’t think I’ve heard an entire sermon about homosexuality. Sure its been mentioned a few times but to say its all pastors want to rant about is not accurate at all. Piers sure likes to bring it up though.

  18. Craig says:

    Like, you know … C’mon Mark – you’re a pastor teacher. You speak for a living! And Piers … You’re a national broadcaster. Get it together, you know?

  19. jdg says:

    Toleration assumes differences; the most tolerant person in the world should be one who differs most frequently or extensively.

    Any engineer knows that everything is created with a “tolerance limit.” The Christian’s tolerance limit is established by God’s law/word, interpreted within its proper covenantal setting, not polls and pressure groups.

  20. shawn says:

    Why can’t Piers be tolerant of ranting Christian pastors? Why can’t Piers be tolerant of the Bible how it is currently written? Why can’t Piers be tolerant of gun ownership? Why can’t Piers be tolerant of the Tea Party? Why can’t Piers be tolerant? Why, Piers? Why? Hurry up and answer so I can interrupt you. sniveling snipe! You’re a white washed tomb full of dead men’s bones!

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​Trevin Wax is Bible and Reference Publisher at LifeWay Christian Resources and managing editor of The Gospel Project. You can follow him on Twitter or receive blog posts via email. Click here for Trevin’s full bio.

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